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Thread: SCAR vs AR; A detailed look...

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokerr View Post
    ...............For me, I handled a SCAR the other day. My take is that it is a very well done gun quality wise, fit and finish were very good. That is the first impression, knowing FN it probably translates into very good results, but.......

    I saw it stripped down but did not try it myself, would have to do that and see. Basing it on my XCR it seemed to be more parts to loose, but that's an impression.

    I did not like the reciprocating charging handle (XCR does not have that and I see no advantage). The guy had put it on the right side as it was an issue. Non reciprocation on the left side for right handers works better if you are need speed.

    Magazine release was good (and ambidextrous which is a plus)

    Safety was too small and I did not like how it functioned.

    I did not like the bolt hold back/ release mechanism ala an AR type (XCRs is probably done so well you cannot improve on it). The SCAR is better than an AR as it has a better shape, but still an AR location and setup which I do not like.

    Fit and finish are far better than the XCR, handling and balance is better than my XCR, overall I would still take the XCR (I can improve the XCR if I was willing to get the light barrel, but still I do not think it will be as good as the SCAR of the MP15-T I have handled and shot)

    That,s the kind of comparison that works, yes its my opinion, but I base it on actual facts from my viewpoint, and you can do the same and see if that fits you or not.

    The massive XCR bolt would seem to be an improvement over the flimsy staked AR bolt, but time will tell. A poorly done massive bolt (even a beautifully machined one) is worse than a well done lighter bolt (though AK was a lot like the XCR so it looks good, but that's not proven fully though few if any XCR related bolt issues have surfaced)

    Now that is s my take, the rest have liked this, for me it does not tell me what I need to know in far to much detail and does not give me a basis to assess with information I can use.
    Blah blah blah blah XCR yackity smackity. XCR XCR XCR Blah Blah. Blah XCR XCR Blah.

    What's really going on here?
    Last edited by decodeddiesel; 01-07-11 at 11:13.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokerr View Post
    I am going to do a different take on this.

    While a lot of work went into the write up, I think it missed the mark.

    For someone shooting the gun, what counts is how well it works (reliability which only time will tell), accuracy (does it do what it needs to), ease of disassemble and assembly, ergonomics of controls and overall feel for function.

    Once you delve into minute depth details, then I think it falls off the map.

    Do a comparison with an AK and you would come up with a cheap piece of junk. Put the AK parts in context and its only drawback is accuracy (and that's not a drawback for untrained or conscript armies). Its cheap and it works (even for top operators in the right situation)

    Assumptions of harmonics affecting the accuracy, piston vs DGI and all that drift into speculation as does timing, letting the feed work better etc.

    I think you need to be a gun engineer/designer to actually asses how each of the components contributes, detract or even makes no difference in the gun functioning.

    Ultimately, what actually tells is putting it into a lot of use to see how it holds up (and if you "improve" a component, the same thing, only use will tell, not an analysis - that just gets you the basis for what to do and you need to know what you are actually after in how that part relates to the rest of the mechanism). A designer because he knows the environment the part works in can make a good attempt, though it still have to be used a lot to tell for sure. Usually trial and refinement involved. Ergo agreement on certain components improvements for the AR we now know are better due to time and testing (SCAR is too new for that and proprietary so no aftermarket).

    For me, I handled a SCAR the other day. My take is that it is a very well done gun quality wise, fit and finish were very good. That is the first impression, knowing FN it probably translates into very good results, but.......

    I saw it stripped down but did not try it myself, would have to do that and see. Basing it on my XCR it seemed to be more parts to loose, but that's an impression.

    I did not like the reciprocating charging handle (XCR does not have that and I see no advantage). The guy had put it on the right side as it was an issue. Non reciprocation on the left side for right handers works better if you are need speed.

    Magazine release was good (and ambidextrous which is a plus)

    Safety was too small and I did not like how it functioned.

    I did not like the bolt hold back/ release mechanism ala an AR type (XCRs is probably done so well you cannot improve on it). The SCAR is better than an AR as it has a better shape, but still an AR location and setup which I do not like.

    Fit and finish are far better than the XCR, handling and balance is better than my XCR, overall I would still take the XCR (I can improve the XCR if I was willing to get the light barrel, but still I do not think it will be as good as the SCAR of the MP15-T I have handled and shot)

    That,s the kind of comparison that works, yes its my opinion, but I base it on actual facts from my viewpoint, and you can do the same and see if that fits you or not.

    The massive XCR bolt would seem to be an improvement over the flimsy staked AR bolt, but time will tell. A poorly done massive bolt (even a beautifully machined one) is worse than a well done lighter bolt (though AK was a lot like the XCR so it looks good, but that's not proven fully though few if any XCR related bolt issues have surfaced)

    Now that is s my take, the rest have liked this, for me it does not tell me what I need to know in far to much detail and does not give me a basis to assess with information I can use .
    This comes to mind....
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IHAZeqwQvA

  3. #53
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    Smokerr,

    What could the op have done more than what he did to give a good write up? In reviewing your post doesn't it appear he did a much better job at giving information that others might enjoy reading?

    The information is just that information. It's well thought out and that isn't something we always get to see online.

    I have a SCAR 16 with a little more than 10, 600 rounds through it. Nothing has broken and it's easy to use and very accurate. That's not a lot of rounds, but it's enough for me to say mines ok for me. Is that the type of info you are looking for?

    How many rounds do you have through those various firearms that you make comparison to?
    Joshua 24:14-15


    "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Edmund Burke

  4. #54
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    Great job Hootie. Thanx.

  5. #55
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    Fantastic Read... despite it being way over my head.

    I (as many others) wish there was more consideration given to longer hand guards.

    Overall great work, it's nice to see information at this high of a level being exchanged!

  6. #56
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    I'm not sure how many additional handguard options there could be with SOCOM requesting a 10" barrel. The rail extension (both FN and third-party options) seems to be the ticket for longer barrel lengths.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokerr View Post
    fit and finish were very good.
    That's all I needed to read....

  8. #58
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    My SCAR MK16s is my go to carbine. Perfect, no, but pretty good.

    To the XCR fan boy earlier, I have an XCR, I like it, but the SCAR is a better combat weapon.

    Total agreement in regards to, "if you want a piston weapon", get a piston designed weapon, not a conversion or AR modified system.

    The weak points of the AR system are the weak bolt/BCG/extractor. Any improved designed must address these, and of course the SCAR does in spades. And of course as stated, the increased heat exacerbates the weak points of the AR design.

    Now combat and time will tell. AS to the military applications, the full auto capability really stresses a system to the maximum. No civilian semi auto weapon even comes close to those stresses, even in hi level training courses.

    Great report, thank you for your dedication and time.

    Good luck.

    Fred
    Semper Fi * * * Stupid Should Hurt

    “To lead untrained men in to war, is to waste them.” - Confucious

    “We can evade reality, but we cannot evade the consequences of evading reality” - Ayn Rand

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stephen_H View Post
    I'm not even sure where to begin. You lament a very scientific comparison between several modern firearms as being unrealistic or irrelevant, but then cite your own opinion and personal preferences as reasons to choose a carbine? Is that pretty accurate?

    Stephen
    No, what I would say is that only an experience fire arms engineer would be able to choose tests and then compariosns that are valid.

    I live in (work) a world that in between the two worlds of users (typically people that buy cars do not have in depth technical knowledge) and assessing machinery and equipment for failures as well as recommendations for equipment.

    I will site a specific case. We had need of a ceramic bearing due to the requirement of an application. The least expensive one I could get that had quality attached (Koyo which is the bearing supply division for Toyota) made that type. I had one fail almost immediately. All the charts, graphs and pictures and data failed me (and this was industry standard material that I can cross compare with others in the industry using the same standards, i.e. specific test and methodology that are industry recognzied, not ones I came up with myself)

    I do not have the knowledge, let alone the tools for testing to determine how good that product was. What I had said it should be more than good.

    In this case despite my best efforts I was either wrong, or we had a one off failure. As they are expensive even for the least costly, I then moved to the other choice which cost more which was the manufacutre for conventional bearing I normally use. I installed in that as well as 5 other application and no failures.

    I would not take IR readings of the bearings and present that as information that has any meaning as I do not know how it relates to the real world.

    Again, tests or data taken out of context may look impressive, but actually not convey anything that you will not get by casual inspection.

    An AK47 may look like junk (which my brother thinks mine is) but it works very effectively.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chieftain View Post
    My SCAR MK16s is my go to carbine. Perfect, no, but pretty good.

    To the XCR fan boy earlier, I have an XCR, I like it, but the SCAR is a better combat weapon.

    Good luck.

    Fred
    When you stoop to calling someone fan boy, you show your gross stupidity and inability to have a rational public discourse.

    I can site real operators who like the XCR a lot for the reasons I have listed as well as others.

    I like the innovation of the XCRt, it suits me, others are fine with the AR controls which I find extremely poor. Thats my assessment and I respect that others feel differently. Others like the ACR, FAL, SCAR, HK416 (special forces and its a modified piston onto an AR ).

    My take though Buckwheat boy is you need to learn some manners.

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