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Thread: US Optics VS Schmidt & Bender

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    US Optics VS Schmidt & Bender

    I would be using the optic for long range shooting, hunting and shtf bolt gun. Either going to be .308 or .300 win mag.....

    I want to end up with a variable scope and have pretty much narrowed my search to either US Optics or Schmidt and Bender. From what I have been reading you could pretty much compare these two like Mercedes is to BMW. Is that correct? Who else is in their league or is that it? What one would you prefer and why? Also what reticule would you choose. They confuse me, there are so many to choose from!

    THX

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    I don't really have any experience with USO but Ive been using SB optics for a few years now, and am very pleased with them.


    My 3-12x50 has the Gen II mil-dot. Its not really precision oriented but is meant for military use. If you want a more precise reticle get the P4F which has fine lines.



    Id also recommend getting mil turrets (.10 MRAD per click) as opposed to MOA turrets. Its a little bit quicker to make adjustments, and once you get used to the mil system its a little better.


    Also heard a lot of good things about Premier, and they have a USMC contract now.

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    You really cant go wrong with either scope. I have a USO SN3 on my bolt gun, its a 3.2-17X with mil windage and mil EREK elevation. The nice thing about USO is you can build the scope to about any combo you want..Reticle, tube size,type of turrets, moa or mil,objective lens size, etc. Plus there customer service is top notch, and in the US.

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    what is EREK? I saw that didn't quite know what it meant. Also what makes 1/4 moa 1/8 moa etc turrets better than one another?


    I am a newb when it comes to scopes and their details for the most part. I just know the brands well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by payj View Post
    what is EREK? I saw that didn't quite know what it meant. Also what makes 1/4 moa 1/8 moa etc turrets better than one another?


    I am a newb when it comes to scopes and their details for the most part. I just know the brands well.


    1/8th would be better for making fine adjustments at long range.


    For instance at 800 yards a 1/8th MOA adjustment would be 1" per click. 1/4MOA would be 2" per click.


    .10 mil is .36" per click so they are a little courser than 1/4 adjustments but finer than 1/2 MOA.


    The thing with finer adjustments is it takes longer to make adjustments since you have more clicks to go through. I think .10mil clicks are fine enough you can easily hit torso size targets yet you aren't having to go through tons of clicks to get there. 1 click at 1k yards with .10 mil clicks is 3.6" so you still have lots of precision per click.

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    Be aware that when making adjustments you're rarely making minute ones so consider Belmont's words very carefully. He knows of what he speaks.

    The most important thing is in the tracking of the adjustment. Being able to quickly dial in your dope for a given range pays great dividends. 1/2" or even 1" clicks can be very useful for speed but if they can't track they're not worth much.

    S&B's have a huge following and while great scopes there are many worthwhile competitors, among them USO. At SHOT the year I went I saw the USO booth driving nails with one of their scopes.

    Based on the suggestion of Scott at Liberty Optics my scope choice was a Premier Reticle for two reasons. First it has a .1 click but at every mil gives you a solid "clunk." This makes it a very fast scope for large adjustments and still fine enough for small ones. Second with a 34mm diameter tube it is very clear at night and the adjustable rheostat doesn't overwhelm your targets. For the money (it still ain't cheap) it's a very hard scope to beat.
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 10-24-10 at 17:32.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gutshot John View Post
    Be aware that when making adjustments you're rarely making minute ones so consider Belmont's words very carefully. He knows of what he speaks.

    The most important thing is in the tracking of the adjustment. Being able to quickly dial in your dope for a given range pays great dividends. 1/2" or even 1" clicks can be very useful for speed but if they can't track they're not worth much.

    S&B's have a huge following and while great scopes there are many worthwhile competitors, among them USO. At SHOT the year I went I saw the USO booth driving nails with one of their scopes.

    Based on the suggestion of Scott at Liberty Optics my scope choice was a Premier Reticle for two reasons. First it has a .1 click but at every mil gives you a solid "clunk." This makes it a very fast scope for large adjustments and still fine enough for small ones. Second with a 34mm diameter tube it is very clear at night and the adjustable rheostat doesn't overwhelm your targets. For the money (it still ain't cheap) it's a very hard scope to beat.



    Premier makes a good scope, too, and are def worth looking at.


    Im not sure about other SB scopes but mine has the solid click every mil as well, and "zero stop" so you know when you hit zero. It actually goes like half a mil past zero but its pretty obvious once you use it.


    The top of the turret also pops up once you go a full revolution. Its double turn, and once you got past 11 mils you get the little circle that comes up out of the top of the turret.


    There are quite a few really quality scopes out there that you can't go wrong with them. SB, Premier, Zeiss Hensoldt, USO, ect. Just make sure the optic matches what you want out of it, and has the features that will aid in making shots at range. Leupold and NF also make good scopes but they are not in the same class as the ones previously mentioned. Doesnt mean they are not usable but they simply lack of the features of the premier scopes on the market, do not have the same quality glass, the generally build quality is a little less, ect. For instance NF "prints" the adjustment parkings wheras SB are all laser cut into metal, and the low light brightness on SB optics is much greater than NF.


    As far as the speed goes with the adjustment increments just as an example...even though my 3-12X is on a 556 gun I can still shoot out 1k without even getting into the 2nd revolution of the turret. With SSA 77 SMK's at 556 pressure my dope for 500 is 27 down clicks, 750 is 57 clicks, and 1k is around 110. I have 12 mils per revolution so 110 clicks (11.0 mils) is not even into the 2nd turn yet.


    Oh and any of the big name military grade scope makers should be able to do the same thing with the nail. Generally mil grade scopes are made with much thicker side walls and are build more heavy duty. SB scopes have proven themselves to be extremely reliable with military units around the world including our own USMC, the British military, ect. The German soldiers I shot with had a Zeiss Hensoldt on their AI 300WM, and those have held up really well too. In fact I think those scopes might have a slight lead on SB currently as far as glass goes. They are using a little bit different type of material that has a bit better of edge to edge focus.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Belmont31R View Post
    Premier makes a good scope, too, and are def worth looking at.


    Im not sure about other SB scopes but mine has the solid click every mil as well, and "zero stop" so you know when you hit zero. It actually goes like half a mil past zero but its pretty obvious once you use it.


    The top of the turret also pops up once you go a full revolution. Its double turn, and once you got past 11 mils you get the little circle that comes up out of the top of the turret.


    There are quite a few really quality scopes out there that you can't go wrong with them. SB, Premier, Zeiss Hensoldt, USO, ect. Just make sure the optic matches what you want out of it, and has the features that will aid in making shots at range. Leupold and NF also make good scopes but they are not in the same class as the ones previously mentioned. Doesnt mean they are not usable but they simply lack of the features of the premier scopes on the market, do not have the same quality glass, the generally build quality is a little less, ect. For instance NF "prints" the adjustment parkings wheras SB are all laser cut into metal, and the low light brightness on SB optics is much greater than NF.


    As far as the speed goes with the adjustment increments just as an example...even though my 3-12X is on a 556 gun I can still shoot out 1k without even getting into the 2nd revolution of the turret. With SSA 77 SMK's at 556 pressure my dope for 500 is 27 down clicks, 750 is 57 clicks, and 1k is around 110. I have 12 mils per revolution so 110 clicks (11.0 mils) is not even into the 2nd turn yet.


    Oh and any of the big name military grade scope makers should be able to do the same thing with the nail. Generally mil grade scopes are made with much thicker side walls and are build more heavy duty. SB scopes have proven themselves to be extremely reliable with military units around the world including our own USMC, the British military, ect. The German soldiers I shot with had a Zeiss Hensoldt on their AI 300WM, and those have held up really well too. In fact I think those scopes might have a slight lead on SB currently as far as glass goes. They are using a little bit different type of material that has a bit better of edge to edge focus.
    Belmont I hope you don't mind but I'm gonna ask you (whoever else wants to answer too) a bunch of questions that may make you roll your eyes a little. Like I said I am new to the scope thing. Just researched "best brands" if you will. Please bare with....

    I plan on putting this on a bolt gun (which one idk yet) and want the "best" scope. I know there are alot but just one these top tier ones. 3-3.5k price range.

    I'm thinking my range will be in the 600-800 yd range as I will most likely be buying a .308.



    That put aside.......

    These questions are based off of USO website....


    Looking at the SN-3 T-Pal 5x25. Seems to be awesome, anything I am missing by choosing this one?

    First: I went to USO website and they literally have 10 reticules to choose from. Why would you choose a,b,c, or d? There seems to be so many fricken choices. My goal would be at the very LEAST to hit a human at 800yds with ease. More accurate to I suppose but thats a start. What reticule would be good for that? Loaded question I am sure, but I don't know enough to give you any more info so ask me specifics if you want.....


    Second: The windage option seems to be in mil and moa. Mil is more precise right? You say they are quicker and at 800 yds one click is .36 inches. Therefore, wouldn't moa be quicker since your moving more per click? Therefore the 1/10 mil seems to be the more "precise adjustment right? Also, there is an option for "windage stop" what does that mean? Would you go turrets over the normal screw type or go with the normal ones so you could screw on the dust cover?


    Third: Elevation should be the same as you windage right? Also what is EREK? The knob seems to be much larger than normal. What makes them good for the extra $175?


    Fourth: What tube size to go with a .308? It seem 35mm is good only for larger calibers? 34mm seems to be for european guns mostly? And 30mm the average. Please explain why I would want to go with x, y or z.

    Fifth: I would want the lit reticule. Anyone know the battery life?

    Sixth: Is the extended eye relief worth the money or is "stock" form better?


    Think that's it.

    THANK YOU VERY MUCH

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    Quote Originally Posted by payj View Post
    Belmont I hope you don't mind but I'm gonna ask you (whoever else wants to answer too) a bunch of questions that may make you roll your eyes a little. Like I said I am new to the scope thing. Just researched "best brands" if you will. Please bare with....

    I plan on putting this on a bolt gun (which one idk yet) and want the "best" scope. I know there are alot but just one these top tier ones. 3-3.5k price range.

    I'm thinking my range will be in the 600-800 yd range as I will most likely be buying a .308.



    That put aside.......

    These questions are based off of USO website....


    Looking at the SN-3 T-Pal 5x25. Seems to be awesome, anything I am missing by choosing this one?




    First: I went to USO website and they literally have 10 reticules to choose from. Why would you choose a,b,c, or d? There seems to be so many fricken choices. My goal would be at the very LEAST to hit a human at 800yds with ease. More accurate to I suppose but thats a start. What reticule would be good for that? Loaded question I am sure, but I don't know enough to give you any more info so ask me specifics if you want.....


    Second: The windage option seems to be in mil and moa. Mil is more precise right? You say they are quicker and at 800 yds one click is .36 inches. Therefore, wouldn't moa be quicker since your moving more per click? Therefore the 1/10 mil seems to be the more "precise adjustment right? Also, there is an option for "windage stop" what does that mean? Would you go turrets over the normal screw type or go with the normal ones so you could screw on the dust cover?


    Third: Elevation should be the same as you windage right? Also what is EREK? The knob seems to be much larger than normal. What makes them good for the extra $175?


    Fourth: What tube size to go with a .308? It seem 35mm is good only for larger calibers? 34mm seems to be for european guns mostly? And 30mm the average. Please explain why I would want to go with x, y or z.

    Fifth: I would want the lit reticule. Anyone know the battery life?

    Sixth: Is the extended eye relief worth the money or is "stock" form better?


    Think that's it.

    THANK YOU VERY MUCH

    You want a reticle that will allow you to spot your own shots, and make adjustments off your spotting. So with a mil based reticle you can say "my shot impact was 1.5 mils left and 1 mil down." Then you go to your turrets, and put that correction into the turrets. For that reason you want your adjustments to mate up with your reticle. If you reticle is MOA based then you want MOA turrets. My SB 3-12 is mil based so I have mil turrets. I can "bracket" my impacts, and make adjustments based on where the shot impacted with the same increments as my turret adjustments are.


    Yes its genersally a good thing to have the same adjustment values in elevation as your windage.


    As far as MOA or mil being more precise it depends on what the values are.


    From more precise to less precise: 1/8th MOA, 1/4 MOA, .10 Mil, 1/2 MOA.

    Basically it goes .125, .250, .360, .500.


    Tube size has two main factors: Light transmission and strength. A bigger tube allows more light to pass through the optic, and is also stronger. A 34MM tube is going to have more strength than a 30MM tube, and also allows more light to pass through making for a brighter image.


    Battery life depends on the scope but I think SB is typically around 600hrs per battery. Less for the Short-Dot since it requires more juice.

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    So is .10 mil most commonly used or does it vary vastly? It seems either 1/4 moa or .10mil is the happy medium. So why would it be better to get one over the other. .10il= less clicks at long distances to get it where you want, is that the only reason? What else?


    thx

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    Quote Originally Posted by payj View Post
    So is .10 mil most commonly used or does it vary vastly? It seems either 1/4 moa or .10mil is the happy medium. So why would it be better to get one over the other. .10il= less clicks at long distances to get it where you want, is that the only reason? What else?


    thx
    Like Belmont said, the reason that people go with .1 mil adjustments is that there is consistency between the dot on the reticle and the adjustment knob.

    Fractions of Minute knobs with mil reticles are commonly used but that's mostly because of tradition. Mil-dot reticles are in mils (metric), where the knobs are in minutes (standard).

    Less math to do if you use a mil adjustment with a mil reticle.
    Last edited by Gutshot John; 10-24-10 at 20:08.
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    What would be the downside of using a moa reticule and moa knobs? Wouldn't that be just as consistent, or am I missing something?

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    Quote Originally Posted by payj View Post
    What would be the downside of using a moa reticule and moa knobs? Wouldn't that be just as consistent, or am I missing something?
    No downside at all if you use an MOA reticle. The downside is that they aren't very common.

    It will be much easier to find a mil adjustment with mil reticle.
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    Ok got it. Do most people prefer the mil reticule over moa? if so why?

    Also, what is the EREK system?

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    S&B > US Optics + weight issue.

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    Quote Originally Posted by payj View Post
    Ok got it. Do most people prefer the mil reticule over moa? if so why?
    You're getting too wrapped around the axle on what others prefer/choose.

    Mil-dot is the standard reticle for just about everyone, so are MOA adjustments. I'm not sure that's a preference thing though. It's just the way it is.

    As for whether you'll prefer it depends on how comfortable you are with metric.
    It is bad policy to fear the resentment of an enemy. -Ethan Allen

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    I have nothing against USO, they make good stuff. That said, I have S&B glass on anything I have that needs it and wouldnt trade it for anything.
    Dont sweat the small stuff.


    If youre not taking fire, its all small stuff.

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    Are you able to customize S&B's in a similar fashion or do you have to just find a dealer that has the exact model you want?

    Are the two just as robust as one another?

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    Quote Originally Posted by payj View Post
    Are you able to customize S&B's in a similar fashion or do you have to just find a dealer that has the exact model you want?

    Are the two just as robust as one another?


    No you cannot customize them but they come with many options including turrets, reticle, ect. They come in mil or moa turrets, counter clockwise or clockwise, double turn, MTC (USMC turrets), ect.


    Check out EuroOptics or you can order from SB USA itself.


    As far as their durability the USMC has been using SB for a while now, and everything Ive read has been very positive with their experience. SB also supplies the British with optics for their sniper rifles, and they have been happy with them, too.

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    I have been to their sight before, lots of good stuff. Is there any other reputable site that sells uso, sb etc etc?

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