The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

[Iraqgunz]

Well apparently some of my most recent posts have hurt alot of peoples' feelings when I criticize their DPMS, Delton, CMMG, Oly Arms, you name it selection. The reason behind this post is simple. Many of us consider AR's to be fighting weapons. Not something that we show off to our friends, shoot dirt clods with and take cool pictures with in our latest tactical garb.

Many of those who defend these substandard weapons will do so without listening to any reason or the voice of experience. So in order to prevent another 500 hundred if these threads from appearing I am starting this one. Here is the deal.

1. If you want to post why you think your xxxxx carbine/rifle is better than Daniel Defense, Colt, BCM, Noveske, LMT or other known proven weapons be prepared to explain why.

2. If you think that holding to the TDP or trying to produce a good quality weapon isn't important explain to us why. If you think that staking the carrier key or endplate is unnecessary please tell us why.

3. If you have an exceptional tale of how your carbine/rifle has performed in high count training or otherwise please share it with us.

4. If you feel that you can't wait for a good weapon and have to have something else now. Then explain why it's necessary.

[danpass]

My RRA National Match A2 trumps all because .............................






it's mine

[jhs1969]

Good idea gunz.

I can say that after owning approx. 16 BM's over the last 20+ years that I have learned the short comings of this paticular brand. I dumped my last BM about 5 yrs ago for a LMT. After giving it to my wife I now have a Colt 6920 and can truly say that I am now completely satifised with my decision and it's performance. I will "blame" my long term BM ownership on two things; not having the education to make an informed, intelligent decision and listening to the gun shop BS. I'm feel I am now sufficently educated and have for years now ignored the gun shop BS that is so typical.

I will offer some friendly advise to those who own the lower tier brands, recognize their place in the world of weapons. As bottom feeders. Not to say they will not serve "your" needs but, as 'gunz said, if you defend them as being "as good as" then offer proof. If it is just a range toy or safe queen then any number of lower priced brands should serve in that role. Otherwise I will need to see some hard, overwhelming proof that the lower end of the spectrum is "just as good as"

Also, understand we/I am not talking about your car, wife, dog etc., we are discussing a mechanical instrument. Do not get butt hurt. If it fills your needs then good, if not, understand there are some fixes that will improves it's place in the world or you can do the same as I have, trade up. I did and am glad I did.

[120mm]

I think this thread can serve another function as well.

It is "possible" that some of these brands are reacting to market forces, and have started tightening up their show a bit. I see that some manufacturers renowned for junk have at least started offering better material parts as an option, and I saw a photo the other day of a Del-Ton gas key that was properly staked. I know, kind of like Ahab's White Whale, but there it is....

I know that I'd be happy if the AR market were completely flooded with "as good as" guns that really were "as good as".

[Naxet1959]

Should posters share their experience or credentials as the begining of their post so as to allow the reader to gain insight to their viewpoint? I know that your (Iraqgunz) background clearly gives weight to your opinion versus me as a neophyte arguing the merits of brand X. Also experience or lack of adds/subtracts weight. Just a thought...

[Iraqgunz]

Sure, why not.

Should posters share their experience or credentials as the begining of their post so as to allow the reader to gain insight to their viewpoint? I know that your (Iraqgunz) background clearly gives weight to your opinion versus me as a neophyte arguing the merits of brand X. Also experience or lack of adds/subtracts weight. Just a thought...

[500grains]

It is "possible" that some of these brands are reacting to market forces, and have started tightening up their show a bit. I see that some manufacturers renowned for junk have at least started offering better material parts as an option, .

Absolutely. With the Obamamania over and the gun business slow, the companies selling junk are starting to realize they are losing business because people know their product is inferior.

[500grains]

2. If you think that holding to the TDP ... isn't important explain to us why.

Responding to just this point just with respect to the lower receiver:

My understanding is that the lower receiver is a low stress part, so a billet lower will work just fine, as long as the dimensions are correct (pins fit, mag drops free, fits with milspec upper, etc.).

What I like about a billet lower is the larger diameter finger hole that is integral to the receiver rather than a separate part pinned in place. That is just a personal preference based on aesthetics, not function. Also, I do like the look of some billet lowers.

If I have misunderstood and there are times when the greater strength of a forging rather than billet are necessary, please tell me. Or if there is some other point that I overlooked, please set me straight. Thanks.

I will repeat here what I have posted several times in other threads. Over about 10 years I have gone through lots of ARs, many of them custom builds. Some were just good deals. Some were guns that I thought would be fun, etc. Brands included Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, DPMS, Rock River, CMMG, etc. (I know I am missing a couple but I am drawing a blank at the moment). They were shitty guns. I thought they were average guns when I bought them, but I learned. In other words, I am not as stupid now as I was then.

I have gotten rid of most of those shitty AR-15s (still trying to sell some - send a PM if interested ) in lieu of the half dozen that are at or very, very close to the TDP. In some cases I had to sell 2 shitty AR-15s to generate the money to pay for one good AR-15. In other cases I only had to add $200 to the selling price of a shitty AR-15 to get a good one. So it was not painful at all. Now I have to get rid of my shitty M1As from SA and get one good one from Fulton Armory.

About 15 years ago I went the same route on optics. I was absolutely DONE with Bushnell, Bausch & Lomb, Redfield, Weaver, Tasco, etc. So I threw some of those crap optics in the trash and sold others, and implemented a policy that nothing crappier than a Leupold could go in the safe. And I live by that policy. I have not purchased a Leupold in 10 years, sticking to better quality options.

[Iraqgunz]

I guess I should clarify the whole TDP thing. I am talking about important stuff like proper grades of steel for the bolt, small parts, barrel, etc...

I used a Mega Machine billet lower to build my wifes carbine. Everything fit 100% and I had no issues with it at all.

I would even use BM lowers to build a rifle/carbine if I had to. I agree that it is more or less a "low stress" part. I know that there have been pics posted of some lowers that have cracked or broken at the rear where the lower receiver extension meets up. How and why is unknown.

Responding to just this point just with respect to the lower receiver:

My understanding is that the lower receiver is a low stress part, so a billet lower will work just fine, as long as the dimensions are correct (pins fit, mag drops free, fits with milspec upper, etc.).

What I like about a billet lower is the larger diameter finger hole that is integral to the receiver rather than a separate part pinned in place. That is just a personal preference based on aesthetics, not function. Also, I do like the look of some billet lowers.

If I have misunderstood and there are times when the greater strength of a forging rather than billet are necessary, please tell me. Or if there is some other point that I overlooked, please set me straight. Thanks.

I will repeat here what I have posted several times in other threads. Over about 10 years I have gone through lots of ARs, many of them custom builds. Some were just good deals. Some were guns that I thought would be fun, etc. Brands included Bushmaster, Olympic Arms, DPMS, Rock River, CMMG, etc. (I know I am missing a couple but I am drawing a blank at the moment). They were shitty guns. I thought they were average guns when I bought them, but I learned. In other words, I am not as stupid now as I was then.

I have gotten rid of most of those shitty AR-15s (still trying to sell some - send a PM if interested ) in lieu of the half dozen that are at or very, very close to the TDP. In some cases I had to sell 2 shitty AR-15s to generate the money to pay for one good AR-15. In other cases I only had to add $200 to the selling price of a shitty AR-15 to get a good one. So it was not painful at all. Now I have to get rid of my shitty M1As from SA and get one good one from Fulton Armory.

About 15 years ago I went the same route on optics. I was absolutely DONE with Bushnell, Bausch & Lomb, Redfield, Weaver, Tasco, etc. So I threw some of those crap optics in the trash and sold others, and implemented a policy that nothing crappier than a Leupold could go in the safe. And I live by that policy. I have not purchased a Leupold in 10 years, sticking to better quality options.

[stifled]

Good idea for a thread, given the recent preponderance of posters espousing the superiority of their poor to mediocre guns.

Since it's the purpose of this thread, I'll share the experience I have had with my first AR, a Stag Arms A3. I still own it, but keep it mostly as a range toy now that I don't feel quite comfortable trusting my life to it.

Background: I'm a citizen with a strong belief in personal responsibility which extends to self defense and am fascinated with mechanical things, so guns are a natural fit for me. I enjoy running drills to make myself better, and see myself as proficient especially with some automatic pistols and I'm getting there with ARs.


On to my Stag...
I bought my Stag merely 18 months ago. Since then I have put around 2500 rounds through it, mostly doing drills. I've had exactly one stoppage from this gun, a double feed, about a month after I bought it. Other than that the only issue I've had with it is a cracked buffer retaining pin. I noticed it cracked during an inspection after a range trip. I am not sure what caused it--I'm thinking maybe just that it has a carbine length gas system while having a carbine buffer in it from the factory before I knew better.

That said, the barrel didn't go through MPI or a HPT. Neither did the bolt, nor was it shot peened. It's also not made of the correct steel. The bolt carrier isn't chrome lined. It doesn't have M4 feed ramps... I think I've listed enough.

So while it has been a good gun that has treated me right, I now know that not all AR-15s are created equal and buy accordingly.