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Thread: The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac5.56 View Post
    I'm three pages into it and haven't heard a single person other then myself and Grumpy talk about their rifles...
    I and my limited experience with AR platform take exception to that. See page 1.

    I can also say that the Colts I've shot ran much better than my bushmaster. Their reliability and smoother cycling is what ultimately got me wondering about all this chart business. I saw it before I bought my gun but was under the impression that it was mostly fitment stuff and the smooth talking salesman didn't help matters.

    I think his problem and many others problem is that they can't see better steel as easily as a gov't profile barrel or what have you. The guy who sold me mine kept telling me to look at them because all the parts are the same... yadda yadda yadda. I can actually see some of the differences now.

    I think I'll be keeping my bushy upper for a while as a show and tell piece for other shooters to look at, handle, and shoot. It's about as efficient as an early 90's Chevy diesel but it does run.

    Also, the one thing that didn't make a bit of sense, even when I bought my BM, is why they would shave the top of the front sight base off the ORC models and leave no way to mount a front sight other than buying their flip up that is supposed to clamp to their shaved gas block. Seems like they're trying hard to create new problems to solve.

  2. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post

    Is there a tendency for some of the newly converted and less erudite to just respond with "BCM good, Bushmaster bad!"? Yes, there is. However,
    I would guess that even those who realize their BM is a piece of shit
    and "make it work" have much, much more into their still marginal carbine then they would have if they bought the best carbine available.


    Right here. He was posting in response to my post where I said I owned a BM. Can't say any one know jack crap about anyones rifle with out seeing/ using it.

  3. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by dieselgeek View Post
    Right here. He was posting in response to my post where I said I owned a BM. Can't say any one know jack crap about anyones rifle with out seeing/ using it.
    He did not call your BM a POS. He stated that when people realize that their AR is a POS, they will spend more money attempting to upgrade it than if they just bought a better gun from the start.

    His post was of value and accurate.

    Your post's are not. Stick to the facts based off of first hand knowledge of the subject or stay out of the technical forums.

    Consider this your warning.

  4. #74
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    Why was my post of my bcg deleted.

    He said bushmaster. It was obvious he was speaking to me by saying "make it work". Don't know why you're denying it.
    Also my statements are off my first hand knowledge.


  5. #75
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    The value I learned from the chart and from various posts from SMEs and industry people was to fix what I had (even though it was not an optimum upper) rather than running out in buying a new rifle. The savings for now has allowed me to train more with my carbine to be a proficient shooter. The most critical components were replaced with inexpensive BCM parts, and the rifle continues to function well for my need until it shits and I buy a better one.

    But in my mind, the caveat is this. If one plans on running (example) 2K + rounds w/o cleaning on a harsh shooting schedule, a manufacturer who didn't take short cuts on the building process (like MPT testing, staked keys, type of materials used, etc) will statistically have a gun that will function relatively well in that case. Budget brands who don't go through the process will have guns that will still RUN, but not in I think only if they are maintained and cleaned often (maybe like cleaning at every couple hundred of rounds).

    The reason we see failures with many of the budget/"inferior" guns out there is because of the harder level of use here on this forum. Granted, a well made rifle should continue to function w/o cleaning as long as well lubricated. Lesser quality guns will function well, but they'll need more cleaning and maintenance in order to run.

    With the market field being more competitive and manufacturers with good costs (ie BCM, etc), if one was in the market of an AR, it is better to buy once and buy right. But for those who already bought a rifle with known parts/spec issues, all hope is not lost as long as proper parts are replaced/checked....and the gun is maintained A LOT more often (although this last point isn't an ideal component of a "fighting gun.")

  6. #76
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    Also I agree that if you can get a better rifle for a tad bit more money then you SHOULD do it. I picked up my bushy from a friend in trade for money owed for services rendered. I changed it around enough that I should of bought a nicer one with they money I put into it. That being said my gun is not a piece of shit. And like I was saying it's the snobby attitude that turns people into chart haters. Again I'm not a chart hater. I agree that it's a guide and ymmv.

  7. #77
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    I will go with a couple of claims of other posters that have not been disputed, so are probably factual, but first.

    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    The best thing About the Chart is that so many people are better educated now than they were before that I don't even have to bother spanking the idjits. It's like they're standing on the side of the road screaming "the moon is made of green cheese!"
    Quote Originally Posted by CoryCop25 View Post
    I see that the "chart haters" have low post counts. This shows me that they need to research this forum quite a bit more and they will quickly see that this forum does NOT beat up on the "non chart" manufacturer's, they simply show proof as to why they would not defend their lives or the lives of others with that specific "non chart" rifle. Ignorance is not an excuse or proof that ........... Well, see the thread title.
    To you chart lovers that believe the number of posts someone has made or owning an effete yellow visor is indicative of their knowledge let me first apologize for misunderstanding the purpose of the chart. I thought the purpose of the chart was to guide someone unfamiliar with AR’s to a high quality reliable AR, since process control is essential to quality and reliability and the chart does not address process control then the purpose of the chart could not possibly be quaility and reliability. Just cause you have all the right parts in the box does not mean you have a functional AR.

    Second, if I were lost in the woods miles from the nearest shitter and overcome by the urge to crap and all I had was a print out of the chart, I too would come to appreciate its value. I would even appreciate multiple copies of the chart.

    Now on to what appear to be facts and three simple questions. I have reading the posts regularly for a few months. I recall a post by Ghost1960 complaining about the performance of his BCM upper. The post appears to have first been moved, then inaccessible and is now gone.

    The second post, linked below, complains of out of the box problems with his BCM.

    https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=61361
    No one seems to be calling BS on the claim, so I believe it is valid. Possibly even a fact.

    For those that have not reviewed the chart in detail BCM is ranked second by our yellow visor attired hero and is a forum favorite.

    Questions:

    Are instances of where the total of the BCM product being less than the sum its parts a problem with the manufacturing process or quality control or statistically insignificant based on manufacturing volume?

    If the same failure rate was experienced by Colt, LMT or Bushmaster would it be news? What I am getting at here is does two or however many out of the box failures there have been represent a significant percentage of the manufacturing volume?

    Where is the information on the sacred chart that guides the first time AR buyer to the reliable AR, surely the chart should be able to answer such a question based on its stated objective?

    I am sure one of you chart humpers will be quick to point out that every manufacture makes something that turns out to be “parts is parts” but you have to put it into context of overall production volume for it to have any more meaning than someone claiming their bushmaster has never failed.

    I am not trying to pick on BCM. I have never seen a BCM and I don't personally know anyone that owns one. They may well be the best of the best.

    But you chart humpers want facts, drawings explanations, now lets have some cold hard statistics from you, not anecdotal "my bcm has never failed, and I have alot of posts."
    Last edited by seacoastnh; 11-02-10 at 13:21. Reason: Link the wrong thread

  8. #78
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    I don't even know where to begin with you.

    Can you state your purpose/question in one simple straightforward sentence so that perhaps someone can make sense of it and attempt to respond?

    So far every one of your posts is not much more than ranting and raving and I'm unsure how anyone is supposed to respond to that.

  9. #79
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    I like the way [insert brand here] Trucks look. But I trust a mechanic more then myself if that mechanic tells me that said brand is prone to breaking, and having problems. You are making a hollow argument against people with real world experience.

    If the combination of quality parts decreases both in the field and out of box failures, then the chart holds every bit of knowledge that you are claiming it doesn't. I realize that is hard for you to wrap your head around, but it really isn't that difficult of a concept. A+B=C.

    Maybe you should re-take whatever class gave you an introduction into the Scientific Process.
    Mobocracy is alive and well in America.*
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    'All of my firearms have 4 military features, a barrel, a trigger, a hammer, and a stock."
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  10. #80
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    seacoastnh

    Would you like a shovel to help you with that hole your digging?
    Never judge a man by his success, judge by how he deals with his failures!- L.E.C.

    Some People suck at being Human!- Me

    "To keep you is no gain, to destroy you is no loss."- Khmer Rouge

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