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Thread: The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 120mm View Post
    I think this thread can serve another function as well.

    It is "possible" that some of these brands are reacting to market forces, and have started tightening up their show a bit. I see that some manufacturers renowned for junk have at least started offering better material parts as an option, and I saw a photo the other day of a Del-Ton gas key that was properly staked. I know, kind of like Ahab's White Whale, but there it is....

    I know that I'd be happy if the AR market were completely flooded with "as good as" guns that really were "as good as".
    I, on the other hand, have a Del-Ton that has a quasi-staked gas key. Yes, they did push the sides in towards the screws, but there was no contact with the screws. Obviously, they tried but didn't quite achieve the desired results. I now have a BCM BCG that has replaced the Del-Ton BCG. I am sure this are other "issues". When I purchased the Del-Ton, it was right after Obama took office, and I have since learned quite a bit by following threads on this site.

  2. #12
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    Bushy

    I recognize a few people here from another smaller forum I've posted a couple of times on but I've been lurking here off and on for a while so I thought I'd go ahead and post up my experience.

    I bought my Bushmaster on Nov. 12, 2008 and have since put about 1000 rounds down the pipe. My only issue with it have been a couple of stove pipes. Not bad but still unacceptable IMO. I see no reason why a rifle should ever really do that. The Colts I've seen in training never did that, or experienced any other issues, when digesting magazine after magazine of Wolf steel cased ammo. So in my quest to fix this issue and on the advice of others I sent money to BCM for a bolt carrier group and H buffer. They got here last week... and I didn't install them.

    I looked long and hard at the new parts, decided the Bushy wasn't deserving, and am placing an order for a BCM upper to go on my current lower.

    Some interesting notes on my BM from 2008:
    - Purchase Nov. 12, 2008
    - Approximately 1000 rounds through it.
    -The gas key was about 1/2 staked from the factory. That is, one side was touching the bolts holding the gas key (or really close) and the other half wasn't. Even on the side that's done a bit better it's nowhere nearly as well done as BCM or Colt carriers. I staked it by hand at around 250 rounds.
    -They didn't even try to stake the castle nut.
    -The bolt carrier is the newer style semi-auto unit that has a lot more metal in it than the original semi-auto carriers.
    -Came with a carbine buffer.
    -Has M4 feed ramps.
    -Trigger is heavy but crisp with no gritty feeling. It has very little slack to take up.
    -Chamber seems to be 5.56 Nato (55gr 5.56 accounts for well over half the rounds I've put through it).
    -It's WAY over gassed. This is to the point that it stings ones face and really burns the eyes to shoot NTCH without glasses on. In comparison I'd say that it's about half as painful (maybe 3/4 if it really gets the eyes) as getting hit by an 8% solution of pepper spray... fortunately it doesn't last nearly as long.
    Last edited by ldirel; 10-31-10 at 19:15.

  3. #13
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    The only issues I had with my Bushy was trying to run the upper on a FA lower. I replaced The semi BCG and she ran fine on SA, FA was a no go. I changed buffers and buffer springs with no luck. I think it was an issue with the gas tube. I put an LMT 10.5" upper on and it runs like a sewing machine.
    "Real men have always needed to know what time it is so they are at the airfield on time, pumping rounds into savages at the right time, etc. Being able to see such in the dark while light weights were comfy in bed without using a light required luminous material." -Originally Posted by ramairthree

  4. #14
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    I bought a Del-ton Ar-15 during the "great scare" after I bought it I had the gas key staked, bought and installed a bolt upgrade kit ( black insert, spring and o- ring) and had the castle nut staked. then bought a Magpul CTR stock. It's a good shooter and I enjoy it. Presently the lower is wearing a BCM complete 20" upper while I get the $$$ for a spikes tactical lower

  5. #15
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    As Ive said before, Ive made the mistake of buying a few of the crap guns, I for one will never make that mistake again.
    Dont sweat the small stuff.


    If youre not taking fire, its all small stuff.

  6. #16
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    AR Quality

    Paul Howe with CSAT here. Just a few early thoughts. I run Tac Rifle Instructor courses and Tac Rifle Operator courses where there might be 10-12 Instructors in the course and up to 24 shooters in the two-day classes, sometimes 36 shooters at one time on various ranges.

    I have seen all rifles good and bad break, both old and new. Most have been LWRC due to their quality control and accuracy. I had one Noveske last year I had to put hands on to get it running.

    We currently run 5 of the DPMS CSAT rifles that were built under my last POC and a crew that turned out quality weapons. DPMS has been bought out and the QC is questionable now because my POC was forced out, new management in, etc. It goes in cycles.

    I have issued our DPMS guns to many students to shoot when their rifle failed. Some folks rent these guns. They have run great and I think I got a good batch.

    I think there is something to be said for a weapon company that is small and keeps their QC through stable management. I like to work with and promote such companies to help give them a boost up when I can and shoot their guns and give them feedback often.

    Customer support by the company is important. I have heard of Mr. Noveske calling folks personally telling them to immediately ship their rifle back to be fixed as he understands QC. Also, larger companies put out more guns and when there is a problem, more guns get out to customers with a problem and discontent spreads.

    In short, all have problems at one point. I believe the smaller companies fix their problems faster as they are still able to do so without a great deal of red tape. I feel sorry for the shooter and their $2500 rifle that craps out on them during day 1 of the course. We just issue them a rental and they keep on shooting.

    I am running another course shortly and will keep track of all malfunctions/problems and report them to this thread.

    Thanks,

    Paul
    Last edited by Paul Howe; 10-30-10 at 06:20. Reason: Waking up....

  7. #17
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    Thank you Mr. Howe for taking the time to visit M4c and give your input.

    It is always appreciated.
    Paul A. Hotaling
    Alias Training & Security Services, LLC
    Paul@aliastraining.com
    757-215-1959 (Mon-Fri 8AM-5PM)
    757-985-9586 (After Hours)
    www.aliastraining.com


  8. #18
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    People often fall in love with things like guns, cars, football teams, political parties and the like. I don't. I never love something that can't love me back. It's OK to fail to be objective about your wife, your kids, even your cat, because you love them. No one really expects you to acknowledge that your new baby is ugly or your teen son is a creep, in fact, it is probably better not to acknowledge such. Failure to properly evaluate things is another matter. The Universe does not care that you love Chevys because you daddy loved Chevys and his daddy loved Chevys. Chevrolet is now Government Motors and that's not a good thing. Same with rifles. If you consistently fail to acknowledge mistakes you will have a considerably harder and less prosperous life.
    Last edited by Suwannee Tim; 10-30-10 at 11:28.

  9. #19
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    Mr Howe,
    I've attended a few of your courses and hope to do so again. We appreciate your insights. I also read your newsletter, regularly, and recall you commenting on your success with DPMS. This is in complete contrast to the expieriances, observations and opinions of other high quality well known instructors.

    Considering the poor performance wittnessed by other instructors of DPMS products, prior to there take over, do you think its possible that your POC may have taken the extra time and QC to build your specific/individual guns delivered to you, better then the average gun they have send out the door?

    Bob
    " Some people say..any tactic that works is a good tactic,...I say, anything can work once" former ABQ swat Sgt.

  10. #20
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    Bob,

    Thanks and I think companies get into a cycle of doing things right and then when they get large enough, they are bought out. Many times the buyers bring in their own management and QC folks that were never part of the original process. They go through a period of re-learning and many times the folks that brought the company up to high levels leave because of new management headaches.

    I don't think DPMS made me special guns, they were just at that point in their cycle that things were right with the company. My POC Evin was a top notch guy and I have not had any contact with them since he left.

    As for other instructors, many get free rifles or sign contracts with companies that sponsor them, so they decline to bring up issues openly, but hopefully do so internally.

    If someone sends me a gun to T & E, I do so and give them feedback internally. If it works and I like it, I put it in my web letter. I don't have any contracts with any gun makers and have not been approached by many. Many look at the plain Jane hardware I put on rifles they send shake their heads. It either shoots as advertised or it does not. Not much grey area. One should not need a bunch of Gucci add on stuff to make it run.

    Thanks again and I hope this helps.

    Paul

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