The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

[tommyrott]

i like my bushie because now i understand that getting something cheap
isn't. when i first got my carbine i had to send it back to get the FSB straightened. since then i have probably spent enough along with the initial cost of the rifle to by a noveske rifle, but know i know how to do everything except how to install a barrel extension and i also learned that yes the QC of bushmaster is sadly lacking, but now there is so much quality parts available that i can build what i want instead of settling for POS product that i have to waste time and money to get what i want.

[MistWolf]

...how can one argue with a guy who makes his living using the ar15,M16 platform...

No offense, but a trigger puller is no more knowledgeable about a weapon than a pilot is about an aircraft.

That isn't to say trigger pullers & pilots know nothing. Sometimes, when it comes to technical knowledge, they don't understand or, even more frustrating, will tell you it's not important and some will not hesitate to pull the "I'm the Operator" card.

No first hand experience with trigger pullers, but have plenty with pilots. Pilots make important decisions every time they fly and the penalty for being wrong is severe. I think it colors their opinions. (I know the weight of my decisions I must make as an aviation technician colors mine. I cannot afford to be wrong either and once the tires break ground, it's out of my hands)

Working on US NAVY submarines I can appreciate NDT (NON DESTRUCTIVE TESTING) & MPT(MAGNETIC PARTICLE TESTING) as many lives and billions of dollars worth of equipment are at stake. I'd be curious and give my NDT LEVEL III inspector my BCG out of my DPMS?

There you have it

[NoveskeFan]

No offense, but a trigger puller is no more knowledgeable about a weapon than a pilot is about an aircraft.

That isn't to say trigger pullers & pilots know nothing. Sometimes, when it comes to technical knowledge, they don't understand or, even more frustrating, will tell you it's not important and some will not hesitate to pull the "I'm the Operator" card.

No first hand experience with trigger pullers, but have plenty with pilots. Pilots make important decisions every time they fly and the penalty for being wrong is severe. I think it colors their opinions. (I know the weight of my decisions I must make as an aviation technician colors mine. I cannot afford to be wrong either and once the tires break ground, it's out of my hands)

Really, so the pilot inspecting the aircraft before taking off is for no reason? Is that a Hollywood thing? I mean no disrespect. I just hope that a pilot knows enough in the cockpit to do the job and know when things dont look right on the exterior. I also hope a "trigger puller" or operator knows enough about the weapons they are using. They might not be able to do a trigger job, but certainly know how to use tactics and fully utilize their weapons.

[pilotguyo540]

Really, so the pilot inspecting the aircraft before taking off is for no reason? Is that a Hollywood thing? I mean no disrespect. I just hope that a pilot knows enough in the cockpit to do the job and know when things dont look right on the exterior. I also hope a "trigger puller" or operator knows enough about the weapons they are using. They might not be able to do a trigger job, but certainly know how to use tactics and fully utilize their weapons.

MistWolf is 100% correct. I am a mechanic and a pilot. What a pilot looks for on a preflight is kindergarden material compared to what his A&P I/A knows. Pilots know the basics of what does what, but many are not mechanically inclined. This is separation of responsibilities. To the same point, just because a grunt can pull a trigger real good does not mean that he is fit to be a master gunsmith or even a unit armorer. Knowing the basics is not the same as being a master at anything.

[MistWolf]

As I said, it doesn't mean the operator knows nothing. However, when the aircraft breaks, runs rough, flies crooked or has a system failure, the technician often has to translate what the pilot is says is wrong into what is actually wrong to begin the troubleshooting process. Also, read carefully what I said about decision making possibly coloring opinions.

I should have also included in the above post that pilots and technicians have to work together as a team in order to safely operate and maintain the aircraft in order to accomplish the mission, whether it's combat operations or to simply make a buck.

I'm sure the same is true as well for those who depend on any weapon system, including those operators who are also the maintainers

[NoveskeFan]

MistWolf is 100% correct. I am a mechanic and a pilot. What a pilot looks for on a preflight is kindergarden material compared to what his A&P I/A knows. Pilots know the basics of what does what, but many are not mechanically inclined. This is separation of responsibilities. To the same point, just because a grunt can pull a trigger real good does not mean that he is fit to be a master gunsmith or even a unit armorer. Knowing the basics is not the same as being a master at anything.

OK, that makes sense. I dont see a true "Operator" as a grunt. Operator makes me think of someone that is a master at the art of war...if that makes sense.

[MistWolf]

OK, that makes sense. I dont see a true "Operator" as a grunt. Operator makes me think of someone that is a master at the art of war...if that makes sense.

A Master of the Art of War still may not understand why a thing works. Only that it does and it must in order to rely on it so that it can be applied. Many understand that the 1:7 twist in a carbine length 5.56 caliber AR can and does work with the rounds likely to be used in combat. Fewer understand why and even fewer still understand the trade-offs or care. That's ok because the 1:7 does work in this application.

Many know that an unstaked gas key will come loose with use. How many know that an improperly staked gas key can be worse, resulting in partially sheared gas key bolts?

That's why we work together, share our knowledge and even argue, fight and call each other names

[RogerinTPA]

No offense, but a trigger puller is no more knowledgeable about a weapon than a pilot is about an aircraft.

That isn't to say trigger pullers & pilots know nothing. Sometimes, when it comes to technical knowledge, they don't understand or, even more frustrating, will tell you it's not important and some will not hesitate to pull the "I'm the Operator" card.

No first hand experience with trigger pullers, but have plenty with pilots. Pilots make important decisions every time they fly and the penalty for being wrong is severe. I think it colors their opinions. (I know the weight of my decisions I must make as an aviation technician colors mine. I cannot afford to be wrong either and once the tires break ground, it's out of my hands)

There you have it

I beg to differ. An A&P is suppose to know how to fix the airplane and have in depth knowledge, but that has not been a common experience in my 25 years flying helos and airplane in the Army and with the airlines. I find myself having to explain the operational procedure or ask for a written reference more often than not, when I smell BS being slung my way, when a mechanic tells me it's good to go, when I know in fact, it is not.

MistWolf is 100% correct. I am a mechanic and a pilot. What a pilot looks for on a preflight is kindergarden material compared to what his A&P I/A knows. Pilots know the basics of what does what, but many are not mechanically inclined. This is separation of responsibilities. To the same point, just because a grunt can pull a trigger real good does not mean that he is fit to be a master gunsmith or even a unit armorer. Knowing the basics is not the same as being a master at anything.

Correct. Same can be said for mechanics, Airframe & Power Plant VS Avionics. Rarely do they know what the other does or know how to perform the others job. They are supposed to have the knowledge on how to fix a part, but rarely have an overall knowledge of how a complete system is suppose to work. The older seasoned mechanics do, the younger ones, not so much. You should have sat in my last 441 Check ride to see the in depth knowledge the instructors were asking for with regards to systems, limitations, emergency procedures and flight profiles.

[MistWolf]

I beg to differ. An A&P is suppose to know how to fix the airplane and have in depth knowledge, but that has not been a common experience in my 25 years flying helos and airplane in the Army and with the airlines. I find myself having to explain the operational procedure or ask for a written reference more often than not, when I smell BS being slung my way, when a mechanic tells me it's good to go, when I know in fact, it is not...

...Correct. Same can be said for mechanics, Airframe & Power Plant VS Avionics. Rarely do they know what the other does or know how to perform the others job. They are supposed to have the knowledge on how to fix a part, but rarely have an overall knowledge of how a complete system is suppose to work. The older seasoned mechanics do, the younger ones, not so much. You should have sat in my last 441 Check ride to see the in depth knowledge the instructors were asking for with regards to systems, limitations, emergency procedures and flight profiles.

Agreed. My apologies for getting us so far off topic

[theforge]

Paul Howe here.

I figure I would update some of folks on this forum to the facts. I do not have any ties to DPMS or LWRC. LWRC and I went separate ways do to weapon and QC issues. I will leave it at that.

As for the CSAT rifle, DPMS probably only built around 30 and I have not done any business with them for over a year. You see, they were bought out and the new management seems to have mucked things up there and they forced my POC out and he now works for Remington. Great guy and I was sorry to see him leave. The guns they built ran well and I still have two we use as rental rifles/loaners in case a rifle breaks. My orginal goal was for them to build a mid-lenght, 1/8 rifle, but they would not do it.

I have built a facility over the years with multiple ranges and I have run Instructor classes dovetailed into two-day operator classes that will contain 12 or so instructor students and up to 24 operator students. Instructors fire about 1200 rounds in their six days and students shoot about 700 in two days. Some instructors have problems trying to qualify and it may take them 2000 or so rounds to complete the course.

In an effort to keep students shooting, I orignally bought two DPMS 16" guns from Academy to loan out should a students gun break. I did not want to buy a high-dollar gun for this as rental guns are like rental cars and people abuse them. Later we rotated two of the CSAT guns into the rental/loaner mode. Some students put over 2,000 rounds through them in a week. While not high mileage for some, after a few classes it adds up.

Right now the only DPMS guns I own are rentals. I shoot Larues and PWS in the M-4 platform. I don't have anything to do with DPMS and probably will not as they are under new managment and sometimes problems trickle down into the manufacturing.

As for Bravo Company, Noveske and the rest of the top tier guns, they are top notch weapons. I am not a gun nut and do not approach gun companies to use their weapons. I have a select few weapons I shoot and they are my tools. As for taking a swipe at Pat or Larry, get a clue. Pat and I trade e-mails and I have respect for the man even though I have not met him. As for Larry, I used to work with Larry and still refer many a student to him, especially the 1911 types as Larry is the man in that field. Their business decision are theirs and I respect them. Please don't start shit where there is none.

The problem I have is with the rude people on this forum who talk/type shit. I have been training law enforcement for over 10 years and just now am I starting to break into the the civilian sector. In a six-day class, generally we can put 25-30K pieces of brass on the ground. I teach shooting and try not to get hung up which gun a student has. I just try and keep them running so the student can keep on learning.

Further, if you don't like what I put on my web site, don't come to my classes. I am fine with that. The only reason I am doing more civilian classes is that I trying to get off the road. Sometimes I turn down two requests per week to do LE courses across the US. I have had enough of hotel rooms in my life. Also, I am not a gun gamer. If you want to run in that arena, my classes are not for you. I have nothing against, IPSC or IPDA, it is just not for me.

I think the guys at Bravo Company are great guys and make great gear and guns. The problem is that there are some knuckleheads on this forum that would want to make me boycott any of their products because of their screwed up attitudes and rude demeanor. I will try and not paint Bravo Company with the same brush as I think they are a class act. Still, turds are mighty brave behind a computer screen, but we have all seen those types.

Thanks,

Paul

I know I'm a little late in this. I frequently read Paul's monthly newsletter and I come here often so I knew exactly what he was talking about and where to go. After reading some of the post I was angered and wanted to throw my two cents in, but was glad to see Paul step in. This forum like many has a mixture of weekend warriors and experts and you can generally tell who they are. I have three rifles I run for various reason, a BM, a Sabre, and an LMT and I'm with Paul when I say it is the user. I have yet to have a failure that wasn't ammo related and though I have yet to put 20K through any single rifle, though I have put a few thousand in each of them. I don't know Paul personally, but I know people who do and he is a straight shooter and far from PC which are traits/virtues lacking today. He also doesn't need to sell his class as the real shooters find him and seek him out because his reputation says it all. In fact LAV had nothing but good things to say about him. You guys who attacked him or his integrity showed your lack of better judgement and that is putting it lightly.

Sorry to stir the pot again if I did, but I really had to add my two cents.