The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

**JSantoro** · 12-20-10, 12:23

Don't apologize. Folks that want to speculate and talk smack by remote need an occasional reminder that they don't and can't know it all.

I personally feel that Paul's reference to casting stones from behind the wall of some false-moto screen-name is particularly on point, since it's a daily occurrence, here and elsewhere. If one can't or is unwilling to back up the things they say with their fists, at need, then they should keep their sewer (or keyboard) shut.

I have serious doubts that anybody who put up the nonsense that led to his post would even remotely chance saying the same things to Paul's face if they were in Bartertown's Thunderdome. Minimum, one needs to be able to publicly cop to being wrong, haven't seen much of that.

**usmcvet** · 12-20-10, 12:30

Very well said.

Originally Posted by JSantoro

Don't apologize. Folks that want to speculate and talk smack by remote need an occasional reminder that they don't and can't know it all.

I personally feel that Paul's reference to casting stones from behind the wall of some false-moto screen-name is particularly on point, since it's a daily occurrence, here and elsewhere. If one can't or is unwilling to back up the things they say with their fists, at need, then they should keep their sewer (or keyboard) shut.

I have serious doubts that anybody who put up the nonsense that led to his post would even remotely chance saying the same things to Paul's face if they were in Bartertown's Thunderdome. Minimum, one needs to be able to publicly cop to being wrong, haven't seen much of that.

**AlphaKoncepts** · 12-22-10, 07:33

Business is business and it doesn't matter what the business is; there will always be customers who want cheap and customers who want the cream of the crop. Having run different businesses over the last many years I have only now come to realize this year that the bulk of customers usually want commodity low end products. The few that actually need or want high end top of the line products or services are few or far between.

So that leaves the company with a decision. Low profit + high volume or High Profit + low volume. At the end of the day a properly organized business will decide on their target audience, set sights and attack. As long as people want to buy cheap, there will be cheap sellers.

**usmcvet** · 12-22-10, 07:40

Walmart is a perfect example of this. I think there is a time and place to save money. This is different for all of us. Some things I can not tell the difference with most I can.

**Outlander Systems** · 12-22-10, 07:57

Where is this mythical $1500 number emanating from?

My math is coming up with $826 for a complete upper and a complete lower...throw in $25.00 for FFL, another $13.00 for shipping, and $29.00 for an H2 buffer.

Looks like a grand total of $905.

This here, is why everyone needs to undo the butthurt:

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CE8Q8wIwAg#

ETA: Realise I added a Middy MOE to a 203-cut barrel. Nevertheless, the price doesn't change.

**120mm** · 12-22-10, 07:57

Originally Posted by JSantoro

Don't apologize. Folks that want to speculate and talk smack by remote need an occasional reminder that they don't and can't know it all.

I personally feel that Paul's reference to casting stones from behind the wall of some false-moto screen-name is particularly on point, since it's a daily occurrence, here and elsewhere. If one can't or is unwilling to back up the things they say with their fists, at need, then they should keep their sewer (or keyboard) shut.

I have serious doubts that anybody who put up the nonsense that led to his post would even remotely chance saying the same things to Paul's face if they were in Bartertown's Thunderdome. Minimum, one needs to be able to publicly cop to being wrong, haven't seen much of that.

Paul Howe looks like he could easily pulp me. He could also shoot rings around me. But I'm not going to back down on what I said. Appearing to condone the purchase of guns like DPMS, Bushmaster, etc. for serious use is irresponsible and should be addressed without consideration for one's status.

Lots of hero worshipping and ass kissing going on here right now.

**Norman** · 12-22-10, 10:39

Originally Posted by JSantoro

Don't apologize. Folks that want to speculate and talk smack by remote need an occasional reminder that they don't and can't know it all.

I personally feel that Paul's reference to casting stones from behind the wall of some false-moto screen-name is particularly on point, since it's a daily occurrence, here and elsewhere. If one can't or is unwilling to back up the things they say with their fists, at need, then they should keep their sewer (or keyboard) shut.

I have serious doubts that anybody who put up the nonsense that led to his post would even remotely chance saying the same things to Paul's face if they were in Bartertown's Thunderdome. Minimum, one needs to be able to publicly cop to being wrong, haven't seen much of that.

Well said. You loose nothing by treating people with common courtesy, in person and on the internet.

**DacoRoman** · 12-22-10, 18:13

I don't think that Paul Howe's comments offer much, if any, validation to people that want validation for having bought rifles made out of inferior materials ("right side chart rifles"). I thought that he made it clear in some of his writings that he prefers LaRue rifles, and that he only uses DPMS for range and rental guns. Now as to his argument that he'd rather see LEO's with Bushmasters and DPMS than with nothing at all, I could understand where he is coming from.

As to the original intent of the thread:
I have three AR's right now: a Colt 6920, a Noveske 18" SPR , and a Bushmaster A2. The Bushmaster is a clearly inferior weapon compared to the other two. It had to be sent back after repeatedly short stroking. Bushmaster fixed the problem, but back when I bought it (right before the second CA ban..was it 1998 I forget), I was not knowledgeable enough to realize that the gas key wasn't staked, nor the castle nut, and that in addition to the reliability issue they should have fixed these issues as well (I should also have told them to straighten the FSB as it is slightly canted right). In short, and not even to pile on the fact that I have no idea if the chamber is actually 5.56 and that it has a 1:9 twist barrel, the thing is a mess. I'm just waiting to get enough energy to get rid of it one of these days. Now again this was bought back in the mid to late 90s and despite Bushmaster still using some inferior materials, maybe they at least put them together better these days.

**Paul Howe** · 12-22-10, 22:12

I teach mostly LE and a few civilian classes. Reality is that the department is going to buy what they can afford or is available. The officer on the street is going to use what they are issued or on the approved list. The Feds have more money and sometimes buy higher quality guns. They have the budget to do that. Most state and local agencies do not. Every so often you get a department that goes the extra mile on equipment. It is rare.

I have listened to Armorers complain about problems with the weapons they control. A simple solution is to fix them. I remember armorers who would TI (Technically Inspect) every weapon that came in, before they issued it to the end user. It did not matter that the weapon was brand new, they had pride in their job and ensured it was right before it went out of the arms room. If you know of common problems with the weapons (carrier key/castle nut) check them out. Even if you only TI 20 weapons a day for the major issues, you will eventually get through all the weapons. Next, as an armorer, make yourself available at the range when they zero/training/qualify and see what problems they are having first hand. When there is downtime, give them a block of instruction on maintenance, inspection and lubrication. Let the operator be a second set of eyes for you and potential problems.

In the end, the officer on the street will pull out of the rack what they are issued and deploy with it. As long as it is zeroed, maintained and lubricated, it will more than likely work. Generally they will solve a problem with under five rounds if their marksmanship skills are sound.

Maybe someday we will have a world where everyone has a Tier 1 rifle, but I doubt it. I try to channelize my energy into teaching shooters how to do the best with what they have and make the most of their weapon.

As for being rude on this forum, I consider the source. I appreciate those that have spoken out and turned this back into a positive exchange.

Paul