The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

[Redhat]

Do departments you've dealt with have regular inspection intervals on their weapons?

I'm also surprised to hear unit armorers might not be conducting pre-issue inspections on new weapons.

[usmcvet]

Our PD is small. 4 full time and 5 part time. We bought a Bushmaster 8-10 years ago. We looked at it in a meeting and checked it out. The chief wanted us to fire FIVE ROUNDS EACH and call that a familiarization fire. I stretched it a little and each guy got a 20 round box on range day!!!!! Lame lame lame!

We sponsored a two day pistol/carbine class last spring. Each of our FT and two of our PT officers took the class and we fired 6-700 rounds of rifle and 500 rounds of pistol ammo. We still have a long way to go. We have several surplus M16's that we've equipped with LMT uppers. Our guns are now good to go and they're inspected prior to their use in duty.

We don't have an armorer we have me the resident gun guy and two firearms instructors. I want to get one of our guys to a Colt armorers course. We have four Glock certified armorers and one Sig armorer. The rifle courses are not as common in LE circles and are much more expensive.

[usmcvet]

You lost me there dude?

[120mm]

Where is this mythical $1500 number emanating from?





My math is coming up with $826 for a complete upper and a complete lower...throw in $25.00 for FFL, another $13.00 for shipping, and $29.00 for an H2 buffer.

Looks like a grand total of $905.

This here, is why everyone needs to undo the butthurt:

http://www.google.com/products/catal...d=0CE8Q8wIwAg#

ETA: Realise I added a Middy MOE to a 203-cut barrel. Nevertheless, the price doesn't change.

You can drop the $29 for the H2 buffer. Spike's lowers already come with one of those.

[althor]

You lost me there dude?

Sorry... a roommate once had an assignment to write a haiku, we came up with that one... seemed funny at the time.

Anyway, I wish I had something more to contribute to this thread. With my lack of experience I mostly read and try to absorb as much as I can here. I have a RRA that I was told was a top of the line product when I bought it. I had thought to have researched sufficient to back up the claims. It was only after I made my purchase that I came across this site. I replaced my BCG and kept the old parts as spares. I also replaced my trigger with a SSA after reading mixed reviews of RRA's two-stage. I probably won't do any more but save towards something along the lines of a complete BCM midlength.

[Outlander Systems]

You can drop the $29 for the H2 buffer. Spike's lowers already come with one of those.

I may be knees deep in minutia, but the Spike's doesn't look like it's the heat I thought it would be. I would surmise that the "bolt bounce" issue is due to the tungsten powder sloshing/sliding around upon the slamming shut of the bolt. After seeing the video, I'm of the mind to replace mine (ST-T2)

https://www.m4carbine.net/showpost.p...22&postcount=1

[Paul Howe]

Many folks are in same boat. You might try contacting a POC from one of the Armorer's courses out there and offer to host a course. Generally they will comp the host agency at least one slot. It saves the travel, per diem, etc.

[JSantoro]

Lots of hero worshipping and ass kissing going on here right now.

Perhaps roughly approximate to the amount of :internettoughguy: getting tossed about.

[DacoRoman]

As to the hero worship, I will say that I've had the distinct pleasure of taking a tactical rifle class with Paul Howe. I learned a whole lot and was very impressed with his demeanor and professionalism. At the end of the class he gave us a primer on rifle maintenance and lubrication. He definitely focused on how to make you a better shooter and how to get what you have running well, so yeah, it didn't seem to me that he cared much about what type of rifle you were running and what type of optic you had, whether it was "Gucci" or not. He treated everyone with the same level of respect and focused on Takin' Care of Biness.

So even though I personally wouldn't spend my money on a rifle constructed from lesser materials than even what the bare minimum TDP standards indicate, and that have such little attention to detail that nothing is properly staked and squared away, and thusly even though I think that the chart serves a great purpose, I highly appreciate Paul Howe's attitude of focusing on being a better shooter and making the best of what you've got.

Like others keep saying though, it is unfortunate that many people don't realize that you can get a tier 1 type rifle, qualitative wise, for only a little more money than the ones made out of inferior materials and with inferior assembly.

And lastly, maybe I'm being unfair, but I am surmising that if it wasn't for the chart, companies like Bushmaster would still be pumping out improperly assembled and set up rifles like the one I described above. That's assuming that they are now better about staking critical parts, etc.

[ST911]

I have listened to Armorers complain about problems with the weapons they control. A simple solution is to fix them. I remember armorers who would TI (Technically Inspect) every weapon that came in, before they issued it to the end user. It did not matter that the weapon was brand new, they had pride in their job and ensured it was right before it went out of the arms room. If you know of common problems with the weapons (carrier key/castle nut) check them out. Even if you only TI 20 weapons a day for the major issues, you will eventually get through all the weapons. Next, as an armorer, make yourself available at the range when they zero/training/qualify and see what problems they are having first hand. When there is downtime, give them a block of instruction on maintenance, inspection and lubrication. Let the operator be a second set of eyes for you and potential problems.

Good post.

Every gun that I am responsible for get an initial TI and periodic insepction thereafter. I do many more for friends/colleagues as a courtesy, usually for the cost of a soda or a sandwhich. Disassembly, photographing, gauging, pre-emptive reaming, restaking, test firing, the whole nine yards. I've kept a number of good-as guns on the line and on the road this way, even though they're a sub-optimal starting point.

I know many others who open boxes and issue guns, despite education that should produce otherwise. Even when they've gotten good armorer training, certifications do not produce experience or competency. When they have all three, they may or may not have the tools they need to do the jobs that need doing. They may also be saddled with personal prejudices and preferences that impair good practices for their inventories.

In the end, the officer on the street will pull out of the rack what they are issued and deploy with it. As long as it is zeroed, maintained and lubricated, it will more than likely work. Generally they will solve a problem with under five rounds if their marksmanship skills are sound.

Maybe someday we will have a world where everyone has a Tier 1 rifle, but I doubt it. I try to channelize my energy into teaching shooters how to do the best with what they have and make the most of their weapon.

One thing that I often see is the tendency of many instructors and/or armorers to undermine the confidence of their officers in the issued system. Most often by noting how they couldn't get a better choice, or by being too candid with their opinions, or by failing to consider the experience and context of their audience. Telling troop that he got a POS, or they wish they had gotten another brand, etc, has lingering, unintended consequences many otherwise well intentioned folks don't fully consider.

Do departments you've dealt with have regular inspection intervals on their weapons?

I'm also surprised to hear unit armorers might not be conducting pre-issue inspections on new weapons.

I'm not surprised. I know folks that haven't looked inside their guns in a long time, and whose arrival protocols for new arms/ammo purchases is simply opening the box.