The Official Why My DPMS, Del-Ton, Oly Arms, Etc. Is Better Than Anything Else Thread

[Redhat]

One thing I did not allow my instructors to do was badmouth the issued weapons to students. They have what they have so teach them to use it and press on.

I also didn't allow them to use anything but issue gear.

[Jake'sDad]

One thing I did not allow my instructors to do was badmouth the issued weapons to students. They have what they have so teach them to use it and press on.

I also didn't allow them to use anything but issue gear.

Here, here.....

I remember in my academy days, when instructors were critiquing student's performance with 30 year old, rusty, bent front sight, issue guns, while demonstrating techniques on their high dollar, custom tuned match guns.

[Jake'sDad]

Good post.

Every gun that I am responsible for get an initial TI and periodic insepction thereafter. I do many more for friends/colleagues as a courtesy, usually for the cost of a soda or a sandwhich. Disassembly, photographing, gauging, pre-emptive reaming, restaking, test firing, the whole nine yards.

Wish you were local.....I'd make it a nice steak dinner instead of a sandwich......

[usmcvet]

Many folks are in same boat. You might try contacting a POC from one of the Armorer's courses out there and offer to host a course. Generally they will comp the host agency at least one slot. It saves the travel, per diem, etc.

Great idea thanks. That is often a great way to get training done and to stretch training dollars. Meals, milage and hotel bills often double or triple our costs.

[usmcvet]

http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ction&key=6920

Colt 6920 16" M4 $1250


http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...&key=MID-750-C

$1088 for a BCM 16" middy with CAV Arms handguards a standard M4 stock and MBUS rear sight

[bongogator]

1st Who are these people you're fighting?

2nd A 22 will kill you just as dead as a rpg.

[120mm]

Like others keep saying though, it is unfortunate that many people don't realize that you can get a tier 1 type rifle, qualitative wise, for only a little more money than the ones made out of inferior materials and with inferior assembly.

And lastly, maybe I'm being unfair, but I am surmising that if it wasn't for the chart, companies like Bushmaster would still be pumping out improperly assembled and set up rifles like the one I described above. That's assuming that they are now better about staking critical parts, etc.

THIS, in my opinion, is the central purpose of this forum.

This is NOT about giving police officers confidence in their BM or DPMS; this is about influencing BM and DPMS to fix their shit, when it comes to making rifles/carbines.

It's also about educating police officers and others who may possibly be in the position to influence the acquisition process for getting better weapons. If police officers can lobby for higher pay, they sure as shit be willing to lobby for better weaponry.

Because of that, just giving up and saying "it's better to have a DPMS or BM than nothing" shouldn't belong, or be tolerated, here.

If we're going to tolerate that, then just shut M4carbine the **** down and everyone can go back to ARFCOM and masturbate to pictures of Blackthorne carbines stacked with airsoft rails and accessories. Those who know really don't need this site to tell them what to buy and shoot.

[Outlander Systems]

THIS, in my opinion, is the central purpose of this forum.

This is NOT about giving police officers confidence in their BM or DPMS; this is about influencing BM and DPMS to fix their shit, when it comes to making rifles/carbines.

It's also about educating police officers and others who may possibly be in the position to influence the acquisition process for getting better weapons. If police officers can lobby for higher pay, they sure as shit be willing to lobby for better weaponry.

Because of that, just giving up and saying "it's better to have a DPMS or BM than nothing" shouldn't belong, or be tolerated, here.

If we're going to tolerate that, then just shut M4carbine the **** down and everyone can go back to ARFCOM and masturbate to pictures of Blackthorne carbines stacked with airsoft rails and accessories. Those who know really don't need this site to tell them what to buy and shoot.

Absolute faith in one's weapon is mandatory for morale. Nagging questions, and doubts will needle away at this.

Anyone going into harm's way should get their primary bullet hose squared away enough to the point that its inherent reliability is simply an afterthought.

While I agree that starting off with a Chart-aligned smokewagon is an excellent thing, it's only half the equation. Education can go a long way in ensuring that the end-user is able to thoroughly address an issue that could arise during the worst possible time. Quite frankly, an officer/contractor/soldier can go from Agency to Agency, Firm to Firm, and Branch to Branch with the information and experience to maintain the weapon; however, the weapon doesn't travel unless it's a personally-owned one. In this regard, the ability to recognise, examine, and correct the existing flaws of low-tier systems is an asset that moves on through life, whereas ignorance doesn't afford anyone anything. It's the teach a man to fish principle...

Simply starting out with high-end kit leaves the operator beginning with the proverbial mag half empty.

All this being said, Agencies should hire a consultant prior to filling out any P.O.'s. If Departments operate anything like most governmental organisations, the ones ultimately determining which system to go with are the least likely to deploy it.

[120mm]

Absolute faith in one's weapon is mandatory for morale. Nagging questions, and doubts will needle away at this.

Anyone going into harm's way should get their primary bullet hose squared away enough to the point that its inherent reliability is simply an afterthought.

I agree with the rest of your post, so snipped it.

Absolute faith in one's weapon system is mandatory for morale among a conscript mass army or a knuckle-dragger force, imo.

For anyone with a mind and an over room temp IQ, you need to know what is most likely to fail on your piece, and how to deal with it when it does. False confidence gets people killed.

Here's a good example: when I was a young PFC back in the time before dirt, I was assigned an M60 to care, feed and lug around that was a complete unreliable POS. But, because I was smart and dedicated, I started working on WTF exactly was wrong with it. Turns out the feed tray cover had been re-re-re-repaired so often that the feed tray geometry was hopeless. So I developed some workarounds and learned how to make lemonade with my lemon.

Same thing with substandard ARs. When I was assigned my jam-o-matic Bushmaster in PEF, I just dealt with it's shortcomings and drove on.

Frankly, if finicky weapons "destroys your morale" you are a hopeless amateur and need to find other work. Professionals accept what they have and drive on, or cheat by illegally fixing their shit. It's a matter of who you are, really. Amateurs and stupid cannon fodder "lose confidence" in their weapons systems. Professionals find ways to fight with what they have.

[Outlander Systems]

I agree with the rest of your post, so snipped it.

Absolute faith in one's weapon system is mandatory for morale among a conscript mass army or a knuckle-dragger force, imo.

For anyone with a mind and an over room temp IQ, you need to know what is most likely to fail on your piece, and how to deal with it when it does. False confidence gets people killed.

Here's a good example: when I was a young PFC back in the time before dirt, I was assigned an M60 to care, feed and lug around that was a complete unreliable POS. But, because I was smart and dedicated, I started working on WTF exactly was wrong with it. Turns out the feed tray had been re-re-re-repaired so often that the feed tray geometry was hopeless. So I developed some workarounds and learned how to make lemonade with my lemon.

Same thing with substandard ARs. When I was assigned my jam-o-matic Bushmaster in PEF, I just dealt with it's shortcomings and drove on.

Frankly, if finicky weapons "destroys your morale" you are a hopeless amateur and need to find other work. Professionals accept what they have and drive on, or cheat by illegally fixing their shit. It's a matter of who you are, really. Amateurs and stupid cannon fodder "lose confidence" in their weapons systems. Professionals find ways to fight with what they have.

Five-by-Five.

We're completely on the same page, I just don't think I stated it clearly enough.

My intimation was not that we should blindly put Jesus-calibre faith in a weapon system; but that through education, you can place reasonable, and contextually accurate expectations upon it.

My thesis, is simply, education of the end-user is absolutely as important as a quality platform.

A quality system < knowledge of its operation and shortcomings/potential failures.

Knowledge of its operation and shortcomings/potential failues < A quality system.