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Thread: Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands

  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20psiMR View Post
    I plan on just picking up a milspec M16 BCG from Grant soon. I'll just keep the RRA one for a spare.
    I charge a whole $5 to MOACKS your carrier.
    If you have the barrel in for other services, like putting it on a diet, I usually re-stake carriers that need it "just because I can"...

    Just one of many "value added" services you get when you send service work my way.
    Randall Rausch
    AR15 Barrel Guru

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by 20psiMR View Post
    I took a bunch of pics, and all of them are absolutely worthless to be honest.
    Here's some tips on the pictures.
    Find the camera's macro mode. It's often a Flower icon.
    Turn off the flash. Flashes almost always blow-out a macro picture.
    Find yourself a place with some good naturally diffused light.
    Often the front porch or front yard at sunset will work really good.
    Just make sure your body is not creating shadows.
    Rest the camera on something stable or use a tripod.

    If you still can't get a good focused picture, consider using the camera's self timer as well.

    A combination of macro mode, diffused lighting, tripod and self timer will take excellent pictures.

    These were taken using a short piece of scrap wood to rest the camera on while hand holding it:

    Randall Rausch
    AR15 Barrel Guru

  3. #133
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    Would all agree that the following is true?

    Most important Items:
    MPI Bolt
    Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt
    Shot Peened Bolt
    Black Extractor Spring Insert
    Properly Staked Gas Key
    M16 Bolt Carrier
    Milpec Barrel Steel
    MPI Barrel
    Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel
    Chrome Chamber & Bore

    "Conditional" Items (meaning personal needs/taste/preference):
    1:7 Rifling Twist
    5.56 Chamber
    M4 Feedramps
    F Front Sight Base (FSB)
    "H" Buffer

    Relatively Insignificant Items
    Milspec Dia. Receiver Extension
    Staked Castle Nut
    Taper Pins at FSB
    Parkerize Under FSB
    Double Shield Handguards
    Milspec Dia. FCG Pins


    I put the receiver extension and staked castle nut together under insignificant because if you are going to change the stock out virtually everyone sells a kit do to it with a milspec extenstion, in which case you're going to have to re-stake it anyway.

  4. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Would all agree that the following is true?

    Most important Items:
    MPI Bolt
    Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt
    Shot Peened Bolt
    Black Extractor Spring Insert
    Properly Staked Gas Key
    M16 Bolt Carrier
    Milpec Barrel Steel
    MPI Barrel
    Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel
    Chrome Chamber & Bore

    "Conditional" Items (meaning personal needs/taste/preference):
    1:7 Rifling Twist
    5.56 Chamber
    M4 Feedramps
    F Front Sight Base (FSB)
    "H" Buffer

    Relatively Insignificant Items
    Milspec Dia. Receiver Extension
    Staked Castle Nut
    Taper Pins at FSB
    Parkerize Under FSB
    Double Shield Handguards
    Milspec Dia. FCG Pins


    I put the receiver extension and staked castle nut together under insignificant because if you are going to change the stock out virtually everyone sells a kit do to it with a milspec extenstion, in which case you're going to have to re-stake it anyway.

    This is what is important to me:

    Most important Items:
    1:7 Rifling Twist
    5.56 Chamber
    M4 Feedramps
    Black Extractor Spring Insert
    Properly Staked Gas Key
    M16 Bolt Carrier
    Milpec Barrel Steel
    Chrome Chamber & Bore
    Milspec Dia. Receiver Extension
    Staked Castle Nut


    "Conditional" Items (meaning personal needs/taste/preference):
    Shot Peened Bolt
    MPI Bolt
    Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt
    F Front Sight Base (FSB)
    "H" Buffer
    MPI Barrel
    Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel

    Relatively Insignificant Items
    Taper Pins at FSB
    Parkerize Under FSB
    Double Shield Handguards
    Milspec Dia. FCG Pins


    The twist rate and 556 chamber are important as I like mil-spec ammo (especially the 77gr MK AKA MK262). I also like the M4 cuts as I run heavy grain HP ammo a lot. YMMV


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-09-07 at 10:37.

  5. #135
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    Why would you put the milspec receiver extension and staked castle nut as important?

    Why did you put all of the material testing as "conditional"?

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Why would you put the milspec receiver extension and staked castle nut as important?

    Why did you put all of the material testing as "conditional"?
    Because commercial RE's are easily broken (seen some dropped from 4ft and they snapped). I also don't want to have to buy a mil-spec RE and have to change it out (kind of a PITA). By not using a mil-spec RE, I cannot use my favorite stocks either.

    I am a believer that if a company tests the steel before it ever goes into production, there really isn't any need to do anything else other than batch MP IMHO.

    As hard proof, I run the FN contracted bolts we sell (am a firm believer that a dealer should use all the products they sell so they can find any issues out) and have sold over 100 of these bolts. Not ONE single bolt has been broken or returned for any reason at all.

    Having talked to the guys at Sabre Defence, they advise me that the TDP no longer calls for bolts and barrels to be HPT/MP tested (can do batches). I do not have this in written proof, but trust what they tell me as they do hold the offical TDP for several weapons.

    So is HPT/MPI a good idea? Sure is. Do I personally value it above a barrel made of the proper steel with a high level of QC before the steel is ever turned into a barrel or bolt? No. This is why I moved it down on my list


    C4

  7. #137
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    I gotcha.

    I do think that the rifling, chamber, and feedramps are still conditional as you even stated "for me" which goes along with "personal needs/taste/preference" as they are conditional depending on ammunition used. Similar to the "F FSB" only being a requirement if you intend to use it with a BUIS.

  8. #138
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    Grant/Rob,

    Care to provide supporting rationale why mil-spec barrel steel is a top-tier requirement? Is it for safety? Longevity? Simply peace of mind?

    Do you have any reports of BM 4150 "non-milspec" steel failing in any way? Same question for RRA 4140 steel?

  9. #139
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    I have been in contact with Tom at Olympic Arms regarding the chart. He provided a detailed response to Olympic's status in the chart. I do not believe that his responses indicate that any rows in the chart need to be revised, but it at least provides their point of view as to why they do what they do. Call it an excuse or a reason, I think they deserve credit for at least responding. He said I could post the response with the following caveats.
    I would be pleased to see these responses posted on your forums under 2 agreed upon conditions:

    1. That they are post unedited and in their complete form. I went in and edited and expanded some areas, as well as adding a caveat at the end. 2. That an active link is given to the Olympic Arms Owners Association web site at www.oa2.org. These forums are important to the idea of the continued support of truth regarding Olympic Arms products. All of your visitors and registered users are of course welcome at OA2.

    Thanks again for the opportunity to reply. I hope that this has some how enlightened you, and will do the same for your readers. Again, good luck with your forums. Feel free to post a personal email address for me as rattler@oa2.org. Please do not post my work email address, it gets plenty of traffic as it is!

    Thanks!
    So, without further ado...

    Rob,

    Since I found several inaccuracies (and without detailed explanations, misleading information) in your chart as it currently exists, it will be nice to have Olympic Arms properly represented. While I am happy to answer directly these question, I find that it often causes more confusion than it helps, based primarily on the gross misperception of “mil-spec”, and an even ubergrosse (I really am German/Swiss!!) overemphasis and misdirection of the implied applications of “mil-spec”. Remember, “mil-spec” can be a quality specification, or a contract derivative based on individual contract requirements set forth by contract and mission demands. Without lengthy caveats for almost each answer, the facts and causes for Oly decisions to manufacture items the way that we do is lost in the incomplete translation of these “yes and no” answers.

    Here is Oly’s response:

    · MPI Bolt

    o Yes.

    o All Oly material used to produce bolts (as well as barrels and bolt carriers) is magna-fluxed as bar stock before the machining process. Magna-flux is the predecessor to and an acceptable alternative to the named process of MPI. The results are the same.

    o A better question might be, “what material is used to manufacturer the bolt?”

    o Olympic uses a proprietary material alternative for the bolt. This material (the same material used to produce tail-hooks for the F-18) is far superior to the standard material used throughout the industry. In the SOPMOD tests discussed in more detail below, the Olympic bolt out performed all others 10-to-1, lasting 10 times longer than the second longest lasting bolt in the same tests. This same material that was used for that test, is now used to produce all Olympic bolts, truly, the best AR15 bolt available.

    o Or perhaps even better yet, “Who physically manufactures the bolt used in that particular m4?” What you’ll find is that the same manufacturers bolts are used in most of the “brand names” (as they are not true manufacturers in that they do not physically manufacture the majority of subcomponent parts for the products they sell. Olympic on the other hand physically manufactures EVERY major component part to meet or exceed various mil-spec requirements IN HOUSE.

    o You’ll find I frequently use the term “brand name” as I just cannot bring myself to call some of our competitors manufacturers, as they do not physically manufacture what they sell.

    · Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt

    o Yes.

    o Bolts are tested in acceptable lots.

    o Some contracts require more testing based on the deliver requirements.

    o Bolts are tested using SAAMI “blue pills’ i.e. high pressure loads made specifically for pressure testing by a SAAMI manufacturer according to SAAMI specs.

    · Shot Peened Bolt

    o In a word, no.

    o Instead Olympic Arms bolts (which by the way were the only manufacturers bolts to SURPASS the requirements set forth by SOPMOD for the SOPMOD M4 upgrade tests performed by NAVSURWAR at Crane back in 2001) are tumbled in shot and stone mix, producing an acceptable “mil-spec” alternative as proven in this testing.

    · Black Extractor Spring Insert

    o Yes, and No.

    o Oly’s extractor assist ring, the EXRING® is an approved alternative to the mil-spec insert.

    o The EXRING® is in fact black poly, but it not an insert, but rather around the outside of the extractor spring itself.

    § BTW, the extractor spring Oly uses is a high-tension spring as well.

    · Properly Staked Gas Key

    o Yes.

    o If you will examine TM 05538C-23&P/2 (page 3-20) it clearly shows 3 acceptable methods for the staking of the carrier key. Olympic Always uses one of these methods on its factory assembled carrier assemblies.

    · M16 Bolt Carrier

    o In civilian models, no.

    o But Oly produces and supplies all civilian models (semi-auto) with the most complete carrier in the industry. The lower webbing or “tang” is only cut back ¼” to make the carrier semi-only, thereby providing as full weight (which is critical to reliable cycling) and as full strength as possible without providing a full-auto carrier.

    · M4 Feedramps

    o Yes.

    · 4150 Barrel Steel

    o No.

    o 416 Stainless steel

    o Again, this barrel exceeded mil-spec requirements, and was the best performing barrel tested at the above mentioned SOPMOD tests.

    o 416 also provides faster heat dissipation than carbon steel.

    * MPI Barrel

    o Magna-fluxed.
    o See Bolt above.

    * Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel

    o Yes

    o A mentioned with regards to bolts.

    · Chrome Chamber & Bore

    o Absolutely not.

    o Chrome lining has proven to reduce the accuracy of barrels when tested side by side with the same barrels that have not been chrome lined.

    o Additionally, chrome linings have continued to show repeated failures in as little as 600 rounds of sustained full auto fire.

    o This is why NAVSURWAR preferred the Olympic barrel

    · 5.56 Chamber

    o Yes.

    · 1:7 Rifling Twist

    o Negative for the civilian guns

    o Yes, if required per contract

    o Remember, a milspec contract may not require 1x7.

    · F Front Sight Base (FSB)

    o No. Cast.

    · Taper Pins at FSB

    o Yes

    · Parkerize Under FSB

    o No.

    · Milspec Receiver Extension

    o No. Commercial.

    · Staked Castle Nut

    o No.

    o Too many customers are choosing to change out their stocks.

    · "H" Buffer

    o Yes, If required for contract.

    o Otherwise, no.

    · Double Shield Handguards

    o Standard, No

    · Lifetime Warranty

    o Yes

    · Milspec Dia. Lower Rec. Pins

    o Yes.

    By the way, were you aware that when Bushmaster got started, that Olympic manufactured their receievers for them, and supplied most of their parts kits?

    That Oly provided DPMS with much of the same.

    That Oly broached the magwells for Rock River Arms lowers?

    They Oly had been contacted to supply barrels for Smith & Wesson?

    That Colt’s manufacturing once requested partnership with Olympic Arms for their “innovative mind” and to set Olympic Arms up as the “long distance model shop and R&D facility” for Colt???

    That Colt’s still has not been able to overcome their inability to produce a 40 S&W model of which they sought to do with earnest in 1991?

    That Colt’s contacted Olympic to purchase both fire control components and barrels?

    That Armalite is STILL buyong fire control parts from Olympic Arms?

    The main difference that I feel you need to be aware of is that Olympic Arms differs from these other brand names because Oly is a TRUE MANAUFACTURER. Oly makes every major component for both the AR15 and the M16 right here in our factory. While Oly does not mold their own plastics, we designed and own the molds to make these parts. Olympic is also the only manufacturer to own their own casting house, and thereby has complete QC from molten steel to finished product? NO OTHER “brand name” can make such a claim. Olympic is the only one.

    Allow me to close with this caveat: In no way shape or form does Oly wish to downgrade the partnerships they have with other AR brand names. Nor does Olympic Arms negate in any way the very important role that each and every major brand name plays in the AR15 industry. The AR industry is unique from so many other industries. Even thought there is always friendly competition, we all work together (with the only exception being Colt’s) to provide this nation, its civilians and military and LE groups with the product they need to do their jobs. Every part, however small or large each manufacturer plays in this role is hugely important to the continued existence and security of the United States. We may simply be firearms manufacturers, but the role that we all together play in the history of this nation is critical. My role here at Olympic is primarily this: make sure the buying public is aware of the critical differences, so that the buyer can make an informed decision. While at the same time, providing solid factual evidence for these differences and ensuring that commonly held theories and misconceptions about Olympic Arms, its product, and the role it plays in this industry are correct and true, based on fact, and not opinion, innuendo and false perceptions. Nothing hinders the firearms industry more than the continued spread (and in the case of some other “forums” and web sites support) of misinformation as fact. Olympic Arms wishes to express her support and encouragement to all other AR15 manufacturers. TOGETHER, we work to keep America safe and free, and this role, especially in today’s day and age, cannot be understated.

    Hope this helps. Good luck wth your forums!

  10. #140
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    Things to consider:
    1. The intent of proof-pressure testing (e.g., High-Pressure Testing or HPT) is to verify that there is sufficient margin of safety to ensure against permanent deformation or catastrophic failures due to overpressure ammo and the like. Proof pressures are typically some percentage above the maximum-normal operating pressure or maximum single-failure pressure, whichever is greater.
    2. Non-destructive testing accomplished after proof testing is the verification that the design, materials, and processing were all sufficient to meet the requirements of proof pressures (e.g., Magnetic Particle Inspection after Proof-Pressure Testing).
    3. Non-destructive testing of raw materials only verifies the integrity of the raw materials. It cannot and does not verify the intetrity of the manufactured part POST processing (e.g., after machining, shot peening, case-hardeining/heat treating, fininshing...). Strict process control SHOULD prevent defects, but the reality is that these processes are often sub-contracted, and process control can/will vary. Processing (e.g., machining) can introduce microcracks that will result in fatigue and premature failure EVEN IF raw materials meet all requirements.
    4. Most would agree that a barrel is a Safety-Critical item (i.e., failure can result in serious injury). Bad barrel = Kaboom!
    5. I would argue that a bolt is at least a Mission-Abort-Critical part (i.e., a failure will not allow the mission / training / bump-fire orgy to be completed as planned). One could also argue that a bolt is a Safety-Critical item, since failure at the time Murphy chooses could result in serious injury to the operator or his/her teammates.
    6. Critical parts deserve appropriate non-destructive testing to verify integrity: Analogy: The next time you board a commercial aircraft, consider the integrity of the hydraulic subsystems that actuate the flight-control surfaces and the landing gear.
    7. Risk takers may be willing to forego HPT, MPI, quality magazines/ammo, a spare tire for their automobiles, a pistol, a knife... Likely not to need it does not mean that these are never needed.
    Aubrey<><

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