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Thread: Comparison Chart of Major AR Brands

  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I gotcha.

    I do think that the rifling, chamber, and feedramps are still conditional as you even stated "for me" which goes along with "personal needs/taste/preference" as they are conditional depending on ammunition used. Similar to the "F FSB" only being a requirement if you intend to use it with a BUIS.
    I don't think my way of looking at this is the only way, just what is important to me. I have zero issue if someone doesn't agree with my POV on this.

    I will however call somone a fool because they put an F marked FSB above good barrel steel or chrome lining though.



    C4

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmart View Post
    Grant/Rob,

    Care to provide supporting rationale why mil-spec barrel steel is a top-tier requirement? Is it for safety? Longevity? Simply peace of mind?

    Do you have any reports of BM 4150 "non-milspec" steel failing in any way? Same question for RRA 4140 steel?
    Longevity and the ability to handle (dissipate) heat better.

    For the average plinker, a chrome lined 4140 barrel will most likely serve them well. My issue is that I think 4140 and or 1/9 twist barrels generally equal tight chambers. To date, there isn't a single 1/9 twist barrel that I have put my 556 NATO reamer into that hasn't returned material.


    C4

  3. #143
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    Here is my re-sort with individual items ranked within their groups:

    Most important Items:
    Black Extractor Spring Insert / Crane O-ring / D-fender
    Properly Staked Gas Key
    Staked Castle Nut
    Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt
    MPI Bolt
    Milspec Barrel Steel
    Shot Peened Bolt
    5.56 Chamber (my personal opinion is that the Wylde is also a very valid chamber, but not if it's to be chrome lined.)
    Chrome Chamber & Bore

    "Conditional" Items (meaning personal needs/taste/preference):
    "H" Buffer (this has more positive result than an M16 carrier as long as a shrouded carrier is being used)
    Milspec Dia. Receiver Extension (depends on stock fitting requirements)
    1:7 Rifling Twist (depends on ammo choice)
    Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel
    MPI Barrel
    F Front Sight Base (FSB)
    M16 Bolt Carrier
    M4 Feedramps

    Relatively Insignificant Items
    Double Shield Handguards
    Milspec Dia. FCG Pins
    Taper Pins at FSB
    Parkerize Under FSB
    Randall Rausch
    AR15 Barrel Guru
    California Precision Rifle Club founding member

  4. #144
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    Well, let's give it a stab this way

    Critical:
    MPI Bolt
    Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt
    Shot Peened Bolt
    Black Extractor Spring Insert
    Properly Staked Gas Key
    M16 Bolt Carrier
    Milpec Barrel Steel
    MPI Barrel
    Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel
    Chrome Chamber & Bore
    Personal:
    1:7 Rifling Twist
    5.56 Chamber
    M4 Feedramps
    F Front Sight Base (FSB)
    Milspec Dia. Receiver Extension
    Staked Castle Nut
    "H" Buffer
    Other:
    Taper Pins at FSB
    Parkerize Under FSB
    Double Shield Handguards
    Milspec Dia. FCG Pins

    Where does everyone think that the warranty should go? I have it completely separate now, because I don't see it as a deal breaker. If you do all of the critical stuff right it shouldn't be an issue, and if you don't you'll likely know it within the first year.

  5. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aubrey View Post
    Things to consider:
    1. The intent of proof-pressure testing (e.g., High-Pressure Testing or HPT) is to verify that there is sufficient margin of safety to ensure against permanent deformation or catastrophic failures due to overpressure ammo and the like. Proof pressures are typically some percentage above the maximum-normal operating pressure or maximum single-failure pressure, whichever is greater.
    2. Non-destructive testing accomplished after proof testing is the verification that the design, materials, and processing were all sufficient to meet the requirements of proof pressures (e.g., Magnetic Particle Inspection after Proof-Pressure Testing).
    3. Non-destructive testing of raw materials only verifies the integrity of the raw materials. It cannot and does not verify the intetrity of the manufactured part POST processing (e.g., after machining, shot peening, case-hardeining/heat treating, fininshing...). Strict process control SHOULD prevent defects, but the reality is that these processes are often sub-contracted, and process control can/will vary. Processing (e.g., machining) can introduce microcracks that will result in fatigue and premature failure EVEN IF raw materials meet all requirements.
    4. Most would agree that a barrel is a Safety-Critical item (i.e., failure can result in serious injury). Bad barrel = Kaboom!
    5. I would argue that a bolt is at least a Mission-Abort-Critical part (i.e., a failure will not allow the mission / training / bump-fire orgy to be completed as planned). One could also argue that a bolt is a Safety-Critical item, since failure at the time Murphy chooses could result in serious injury to the operator or his/her teammates.
    6. Critical parts deserve appropriate non-destructive testing to verify integrity: Analogy: The next time you board a commercial aircraft, consider the integrity of the hydraulic subsystems that actuate the flight-control surfaces and the landing gear.
    7. Risk takers may be willing to forego HPT, MPI, quality magazines/ammo, a spare tire for their automobiles, a pistol, a knife... Likely not to need it does not mean that these are never needed.
    I agree with what your saying. The two manufacturers I have talked to about inspecting their steel before machining, do not subcontract that work out. They also batch test to make sure they catch a bad run.

    If we could get our hands on an up to date TDP, it would tell us what the Govt requires as far HPT/MP.


    C4
    Last edited by C4IGrant; 08-09-07 at 12:15.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    Well, let's give it a stab this way

    Critical:
    MPI Bolt
    Pressure Test (HPT) Bolt
    Shot Peened Bolt
    Black Extractor Spring Insert
    Properly Staked Gas Key
    M16 Bolt Carrier
    Milpec Barrel Steel
    MPI Barrel
    Pressure Test (HPT) Barrel
    Chrome Chamber & Bore
    Personal:
    1:7 Rifling Twist
    5.56 Chamber
    M4 Feedramps
    F Front Sight Base (FSB)
    Milspec Dia. Receiver Extension
    Staked Castle Nut
    "H" Buffer
    Other:
    Taper Pins at FSB
    Parkerize Under FSB
    Double Shield Handguards
    Milspec Dia. FCG Pins

    Where does everyone think that the warranty should go? I have it completely separate now, because I don't see it as a deal breaker. If you do all of the critical stuff right it shouldn't be an issue, and if you don't you'll likely know it within the first year.

    I personally think the warranty info should go in the trash! Why? Becuase it has been my experience that companies that push their 'life time warranty" tend to have tons of loop holes in it. Manufacturers that make zero mention of any warranty, always cover a broken part (YMMV).


    C4

  7. #147
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    Also, if I break it out into these categories, do I add back in the numbers?

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    I personally think the warranty info should go in the trash! Why? Becuase it has been my experience that companies that push their 'life time warranty" tend to have tons of loop holes in it. Manufacturers that make zero mention of any warranty, always cover a broken part (YMMV).


    C4
    I agree with you on the one hand, but it always comes up, and to a first-time buyer it's often a "feel good" item.

    Hell, I know of one guy that bought a S&W in large part because he thought it had a lifetime warranty!

  9. #149
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    Rob, would it be prudent to mention the manufacture of different FCG parts? By this I mean MIM, cast, different types of hammers, etc.


    I don't know enough about the different manufacturing processes to say which is better, but I'm sure that they differ from brand to brand.
    I keep hearing about my gun rights, but I just can't seem to find them.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by rob_s View Post
    I have been in contact with Tom at Olympic Arms regarding the chart. He provided a detailed response to Olympic's status in the chart. I do not believe that his responses indicate that any rows in the chart need to be revised, but it at least provides their point of view as to why they do what they do. Call it an excuse or a reason, I think they deserve credit for at least responding. He said I could post the response with the following caveats.


    So, without further ado...

    Ok I read the response. They want people to believe that they are going above what the TDP calls for. That maybe true, but it is nearly impossible to tell with out seeing them in quantity over time.

    Since the chart is specifically dealing with how manufacturers follow the TDP, I wouldn't change anything in Oly's column.


    C4

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