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Thread: .22 WMR AR's

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    .22 WMR AR's

    Just to let everyone know, there are two companies that are in progress with and about to release .22 WMR (.22 magnum) versions of the M4 / AR 15.

    Alexander Arms & Nordic Components.

    Both companies have produced totally new bolt set ups to what we are used to in the regular .22LR uppers.

    Does anyone know if any other companies might be thinking about doing an AR in .22 WMR ?
    Last edited by kennp; 01-02-11 at 07:33.

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    No manufacturer has been able to produce a reliable functioning .22 mag autoloader and several makers have tried. I would "wait and see" before I jumped on that bandwagon. I doubt seriously they will be able to do it.

    And besides, the reason for a .22 in an AR is to save money on ammo but the magnum ammo is getting up where the savings aren't as good.

    But maybe it's just me...

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrt View Post
    .

    No manufacturer has been able to produce a reliable functioning .22 mag autoloader and several makers have tried. I would "wait and see" before I jumped on that bandwagon. I doubt seriously they will be able to do it.

    And besides, the reason for a .22 in an AR is to save money on ammo but the magnum ammo is getting up where the savings aren't as good.

    But maybe it's just me...

    .
    .22 WMR rifles that have been about for years in semi auto have been made by CZ; Marlin, H&K, Ruger, Erma, Valquartsen & probably meny more manufacturers have & continue to make reliable .22 magnum (.22 WMR) rifles.
    .22 LR is cheeper than .22 magnum and so for cheep practice and plinking .22LR would be the way to go but it's not the only reason.
    Some people take their rimfire varmint & preditor shooting seriously and want more than .22 LR Stingers & the like have to offer.
    The 30grn Hornardy .22 WMR round gives performance not too far behind that of a 20grn .17 HMR round.
    Also, I understand that in some states or times of the year there are rimfire only restrictions so if you are after coyote you only really have the option of .22 WMR but of course I may be wrong on that as I don't live in the US.

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    Alexander arms made a 17hmr upper already...

    others who've tried had issues with split cases... (unless that was AA and i'm mixing my info up)

    at any rate... I'd love to see CMMG come out with something based on the success of their evolution series alone

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    Remington did recall it's 17HMR semi. They didn't get the timing of the bolt correct I believe causing the split cases. The 17HMR has a high peak pressure. This put off some other companies.

    We are talking here though about the .22 WMR (.22 magnum) not the 17HMR

    Remington did not recall it's .22 WMR (.22 magnum) semi auto & it is still for sale.

    Alexander Arms has taken a new route in it's bolt design & taken it's time addressing the timing & cycling of the bolt & has got it sorted.

    We always read about why bother with .22 magnum because it's more expensive that .22LR.
    This is the wrong way to look at it. The cartridge should be looked at from what it has to offer in it's own right, not how much it costs against .22LR. Plenty of people have .22LR's & then still go out & buy a .22 WMR. It is a great round with an extended range over .22LR & a quieter report than .223

    I too would love to see CMMG consider doing a .22 WMR Evolution!

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    I believe that another reason exists for the .22 WMR. Our friends in the UK can use them without a lot of restrictions and it is the most powerful semi-auto available to them.

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    No centerfire semi automatic rifles are allowed for civillian use in the UK. The only semi's allowed have to be .22 rimfire.

    This means no 17 HMR semi is allowed but any .22 rimfire is fine.

    Our centerfire AR's were taken from us in the late 1980's.

    We have .22LR AR's by CMMG; Spikes, Nordic Components, Tactical Solutions, Smith & Wesson, CZ V-22, Bradley Arms & perhaps one or two others but no one here has an AR / M4 in .22WMR.

    .22 WMR (.22 magnum) would be the most powerfull semi automatic AR available in the UK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kennp View Post
    No centerfire semi automatic rifles are allowed for civillian use in the UK. The only semi's allowed have to be .22 rimfire.

    This means no 17 HMR semi is allowed but any .22 rimfire is fine.
    Our centerfire AR's were taken from us in the late 1980's.

    We have .22LR AR's by CMMG; Spikes, Nordic Components, Tactical Solutions, Smith & Wesson, CZ V-22, Bradley Arms & perhaps one or two others but no one here has an AR / M4 in .22WMR.

    .22 WMR (.22 magnum) would be the most powerfull semi automatic AR available in the UK.
    ==============================

    So what you are saying is you are limited on the 17 HMR because of the caliber? I'd think if they allowed "rimfires" that they would allow the 17 HMR too, since it is a rimfire?

    .

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrt View Post
    ==============================

    So what you are saying is you are limited on the 17 HMR because of the caliber? I'd think if they allowed "rimfires" that they would allow the 17 HMR too, since it is a rimfire?

    .
    Correct! We have some very silly firearms laws here in the UK.
    Any semi auto rifle must only be .22 rimfire.
    As the 17HMR is .17 & not .22 we can't have it in a semi but we can have .22WMR (.22 magnum)

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    Quote Originally Posted by kennp View Post
    Correct! We have some very silly firearms laws here in the UK.
    Any semi auto rifle must only be .22 rimfire.
    As the 17HMR is .17 & not .22 we can't have it in a semi but we can have .22WMR (.22 magnum)
    =============================

    Man that's crummy!

    I remember years ago I went to the SHOT Show and some Brit Air Rifle companies were there touting an "injection system" for spring air rifles to get more "horsepower" out of them.

    The system would inject ether in the space in front of the piston. When the gun was fired, the compression would ignite the ether adding considerable velocity to the pellet. If I remember correctly, it was faster than a 22 mag. They also warned that the system was for only well made spring air guns.

    I'm sure they've outlawed those systems by now.

    .
    Last edited by ucrt; 01-03-11 at 12:27. Reason: Spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrt View Post
    =============================

    Man that's crummy!

    I remember years ago I went to the SHOT Show and some Brit Air Rifle companies were there touting an "injection system" for spring air rifles to get more "horsepower" out of them.

    The system would inject ether in the space in front of the piston. When the gun was fired, the compression would ignite the ether adding considerable velocity to the pellet. If I remember correctly, it was faster than a 22 mag. They also warned that the system was for only well made spring air guns.
    sure they've outlawed those systems by now.

    .
    The principle behind what you describe is called 'deiseling'
    a small amout of fuel like oil or similar is injected through the transfer port of a spring-piston air rifle. as the spring propels the piston forward the air in front is copressed, this causes heat & ignites the fuel causing an explosion & much higher pressure than the rifle was intended to produce. This will result in an high increase in velocity but there are problems:
    1, The air cylinder that the spring & piston opperate in were never designed to handle that explosion and so can bulge out, crack or rupture rendering the gun useless.
    2, Most piston heads are made of a composite or a leather washer. these just burn up or melt rendering the gun useless.
    3, Velocities are very inconsistent and accuracy goes out of the window.
    4, Most everyday airgun pellets are not designed to work under these pressure & deform so again don't expect to hit what you aim at. There are some heavy airgun pellets nowadays that are made to witstand higher pressure but these are intended for modern pre charged pneumatics. Some people have used .22LR bullet heads.
    5, From a legal aspect, fuel or propellant is being used instead of air so you now have a firearm, not an airgun.
    Most spring piston air rifles do slightly diesel to a very small extent & thats fine but to induce it on purpose with the intension of higher velocity will destroy the gun in no time at all.
    WARNING: Please do not try this, it is very dangerous!
    Last edited by kennp; 01-03-11 at 13:11. Reason: spelling

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    Quote Originally Posted by ucrt View Post
    ....Brit Air Rifle companies were there touting an "injection system" for spring air rifles to get more "horsepower" out of them.
    Never heard of that. I do know major or repeated dieseling can damage a rifle. I've had a couple of mine taken out by it. Easy enough to fix, replace the mainspring and seal and they are back in action. I have one of the most powerful springers made and it is but a fraction of the 22 LR, just a bit less powerful that a CB long. 22 foot pounds or so if memory serves. Powerful airguns diesel slightly with every shot. I just love the smell of it. I shot I don't know how many thousands and thousands of lead pellets in my younger days. Still do, just not quite as much. Murdered a boxcar load of squirrels.
    Last edited by Suwannee Tim; 01-03-11 at 19:25.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Suwannee Tim View Post
    Never heard of that. I do know major or repeated dieseling can damage a rifle. I've had a couple of mine taken out by it. Easy enough to fix, replace the mainspring and seal and they are back in action. I have one of the most powerful springers made and it is but a fraction of the 22 LR, just a bit less powerful that a CB long. 22 foot pounds or so if memory serves. Powerful airguns diesel slightly with every shot. I just love the smell of it. I shot I don't know how many thousands and thousands of lead pellets in my younger days. Still do, just not quite as much. Murdered a boxcar load of squirrels.
    =========================================

    IIRC, it was called a "Barracuda". At the time I was looking for a FWB 124 from Dr. Beeman, of which I eventually bought 2 from him. I remember that the 124 was on the "approved" list for the Barracuda injection modification but I wasn't interested, just felt sorry that the English guys had to resort to that to get a "powerful" gun.


    .

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    The Feinwerkbau Sport 124 .177 was a fine piece of German engineering, I had a 124 & a 127 (.22) in the 80's.
    I now have a BSA Mercury 'S' in .22

    Anyway, though I would love to talk airguns, we are just a little bit off topic of .22 WMR AR's!

    Nordic Components are getting on well developing theirs & so are Alexander Arms.

    CMMG also have a prototype .22WMR but say they are in no hurry to push forward with it at the moment. I wish they would reconsider as they would have something really special if they produced it along the same lines as their Evolution .22LR rifles.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kennp View Post
    No centerfire semi automatic rifles are allowed for civillian use in the UK. The only semi's allowed have to be .22 rimfire.

    This means no 17 HMR semi is allowed but any .22 rimfire is fine.

    Our centerfire AR's were taken from us in the late 1980's.

    We have .22LR AR's by CMMG; Spikes, Nordic Components, Tactical Solutions, Smith & Wesson, CZ V-22, Bradley Arms & perhaps one or two others but no one here has an AR / M4 in .22WMR.

    .22 WMR (.22 magnum) would be the most powerfull semi automatic AR available in the UK.
    Want me to mail you a 5.56mm bolt and carrier group and a barrel in separate packages marked as "Airsoft Parts"?

    KIDDING!

    But no seriously, I'm surprised you guys can have the .22LR AR's being that they are basically the same gun other then a couple parts. That said, I'd still feel pretty comfortable with a .22LR as a defensive weapon. Especially an AR variant!
    Last edited by Roadblock; 01-07-11 at 17:44.

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    Fluted the back of the 17 HMR bolt to reduce weight and the 22WMR is ticking along nicely. The feed ramp needs to be well radiused to avoid catching the case during feed and causing hesitation of the bolt and I think that the chamber we have from the bolt action (SAAMI) is too tight as it shows contact on the complete diameter of the Winchester soft points and also the Remington HP. If you avoid these though everything works. I am going to spec out a semi auto chamber and then continue testing. High speed video shows reliable feed and extraction/ejection.

    For interest we also set up an out of battery firing event for the gun and filmed it in slow motion. The result was quite informative and verified that the weapon can sustain such events without damage or problems. Such occurances should be extremely rare but the information we see from the 22LR indicates that the problem does exist and the weapon must have a reliable way of coping with and venting the pressure from the breach area.

    Overall starting with the 17HMR and working back has shown to be a good design progression.

    Production units will have Ionbond applied over the chrome to help uniform friction in the system.

    Bill Alexander

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    If you can get a .22 magnum AR rifle to work I will buy one. .22 Mag is significantly quieter than an AR of similar barrel length with quite a bit more power than a .22 LR.

    I us a bolt action .22 Mag for pest control on my property because a .223 is too loud and disturbs the neighbors while a .22 LR doesn't have enough power for critters a 135 yrds.

    Thanks for working on this Mr. Alexander!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Alexander View Post
    Fluted the back of the 17 HMR bolt to reduce weight and the 22WMR is ticking along nicely. The feed ramp needs to be well radiused to avoid catching the case during feed and causing hesitation of the bolt and I think that the chamber we have from the bolt action (SAAMI) is too tight as it shows contact on the complete diameter of the Winchester soft points and also the Remington HP. If you avoid these though everything works. I am going to spec out a semi auto chamber and then continue testing. High speed video shows reliable feed and extraction/ejection.

    For interest we also set up an out of battery firing event for the gun and filmed it in slow motion. The result was quite informative and verified that the weapon can sustain such events without damage or problems. Such occurances should be extremely rare but the information we see from the 22LR indicates that the problem does exist and the weapon must have a reliable way of coping with and venting the pressure from the breach area.

    Overall starting with the 17HMR and working back has shown to be a good design progression.

    Production units will have Ionbond applied over the chrome to help uniform friction in the system.

    Bill Alexander
    Thank you for contributing to this thread Bill.
    Ionbond is a new one to me & i have started to look in to it & it looks like good gear to use for this application.
    Traditionally speaking, the .22 WMR has been known to suffer sometimes from extraction problems due to it's high chamber pressure. ( though it's way lower than the 17HMR I might add!)
    the H&K 300 overcome this with a fluted chamber & has a very good reputation for reliability.
    Magnum Research use a smallhole just forward of the chamber around the area of the barrel block that they call their gas assisted blow back.
    The Kel-tec PMR-30 pistol & to be 'PMR-31' carbine uses a blow backed / locked bolt that regulates itself according to the pressure of the round being fired & can acomidate a mix of .22 WMR rounds of different grns & muzzle velocity.
    I beleive; though I could be wrong, that the PMR-30 has the same fluted chamber as the Grendel P-30 had too.
    AMT got over possible extraction problems by boring 18 small holes at 90 degrees to the chamber conecting to an outer sleeve to help the expansion of the gases.
    The ErmaWerke ESG in .22 WMR is the only .22 magnum I know of that actually uses a proper closed bolt.

    Please keep up the very good work Bill.

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    Both the 17 HMR and the 22WMR operate at a nominal 26,000 psi peak pressure. The variation between the two cartridges exists in the decay time of the pressure, the 17 being more gradual as the expansion ratio is lower from the smaller bore.

    All the testing to date has indicated that the problems associated with the cartridges exists not in extracting them but rather in getting them to stay in the chamber for sufficient time to allow pressures to fall.

    Squibs still constitute a problem (albeit exceedingly rare), with such rounds in a blow back. Rounds not expelling the projectile from the bore still obturate until the bolt has moved back enough for the casing to split. In this platform this is annoying but does not constitute a hazard beyond that seen in the 22 LR. I actually feel that the semi auto is ultimately more safe than the bolt action. In allowing case failure it forces the user to clean and inspect the rifle. A bolt action or similar will hold the case allowing the pressure to bleed gradually, so the user can easily extract and feed a new cartridge with a bullet lodged in the bore. This gets very messy.

    I am impressed with the Kel-Tec. It mimics the linear moving barrel seen in the FN 5.7 and is very elegant in locking the case and slide together by the use of pressure within the case. Both parts move under recoil together for enough time to drop pressure and the stop on the barrel then allows the slide to continue rearward, extracting the case. More pressure= more locking force.

    Accuracy considerations would preclude a moving barrel in a rifle of this caliber but the envelope of the AR is more than enough to achieve the desired action with a more brute force approach.

    Finally to put the above examination of failures in context one has to consider the round count. We have upwards of 50,000 rounds through 5 rifles with testing in a full range of enviromental conditions. During this time a total of three rounds have failed, with all other failures being induced deliberately to verify FMEA. Our 22 WMR is a long way behind this at only <2000 rounds presently.

    Bill Alexander

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    Hi Bill,
    it's been 10 days, any update?
    Will it be at the shot show?
    Got word today from Tim at Nordic Components that thay have finished all testing and have started production.

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