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Thread: P9HST2 vs P9HST4

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    P9HST2 vs P9HST4

    P9HST2 is 147gr Federal HST

    P9HST4 is 147gr +P Federal HST


    Which one would you choose? Why?
    Last edited by Falz24; 01-14-11 at 04:03.

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    I will put this here before somebody else

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

    If its on the list its good to go. If its not, it failed one(or more) parts of the testing.

    As far as the 147g+p stuff not being on the list, I dont know. Its possible Doc just hasnt tested it yet.

    The 124g+p HST has been removed from the list. I think it used to be there, not sure why its not anymore.
    Last edited by rjacobs; 01-14-11 at 08:18.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rjacobs View Post
    I will put this here before somebody else

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

    If its on the list its good to go. If its not, it failed one(or more) parts of the testing.

    As far as the 147g+p stuff not being on the list, I dont know. Its possible Doc just hasnt tested it yet.

    The 124g+p HST has been removed from the list. I think it used to be there, not sure why its not anymore.
    If a particular load is not on the list, then it either failed, was not tested, or a load on the list does better. For instance, Dr. Roberts has said that the standard pressure 124gr Gold Dot does just fine, but the 124gr+P does better and you should go for the +P. You can draw all kinds of conclusions if it is not on the list which may not be accurate. The "list" just gives people a selection of various loads that are proven to work well.

    In regard to the HST 147gr and 147gr+P. It's the same bullet, just one is thrown faster. Almost every HST 147gr standard pressure load has done well in barrels of 3.5" and longer in ballistics testing. I supposed if you have a barrel length that is shorter than that, then the 147gr+P would be a better choice. The higher velocity doesn't make the bullet expand any bigger, it just makes it more reliable in short barrels and gives it "slightly" better penetration due to the increased momentum. Either way though, the HST kinda sucks at shooting through auto glass.
    "A wise man's heart inclines him to the right, but a fool's heart to the left." -Ecclesiastes 10:2

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    We have not yet tested the P9HST4.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post
    We have not yet tested the P9HST4.
    Were the 124g loads taken off the list or where they never on it and it was just my imagination? I could have sworn the 124+p used to be on the list.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    Either way though, the HST kinda sucks at shooting through auto glass.
    I've sen it shot on glass several times, and it did quite well, almost bonded level performance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake'sDad View Post
    I've sen it shot on glass several times, and it did quite well, almost bonded level performance.
    ATK Testing Sacramento 2007:
    HST 147gr: 9" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 147gr: 12" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Santa Clara 2007:
    HST 147gr: 7" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 147gr: 9.5" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Riverside 2007:
    HST 147gr: 7.75" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 147gr: 8.75" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 147gr: 9.75" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Los Angeles 2007:
    HST 147gr: 7.5" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 147gr: 10" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Aurora 2008:
    HST 147gr: 14.25" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 124gr+P: 15.25" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 124gr+P: 9" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Ft. Collins 2008:
    HST 147gr: 9.5" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 127gr+P+: 10.75" of penetration through auto glass
    GS 147gr: 11.25" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 124gr+P: 12.25" of penetration through auto glass


    The only test where the HST came close to the FBI minimum penetration requirement of 12" was on the Aurora test which in my opinion was a fluke. So, it is 1 for 6 in good windshield penetration.

    As for the Gold Dot, in its various grain weights it was 3 for 4 in good windshield penetration in these tests.

    The 9mm in general sucks at windshield penetration which was one of the reasons why the FBI moved away from it in the early 1990s and was discussion in Agent Urey Patrick's "10mm Notes". This is evident in regular jacketed bullet technolgy which breaks apart when it impacts a windshield, loses its momentum, and results in shallow penetration. The 10mm/.40S&W is thicker throughout the length of the bullet, and is able to stay together better through a windshield and it can meet that 12" penetration standard with older jacketed bullet technolgy. Bonded bullets stay together better through a windshield and in 9mm are able to meet that 12" FBI penetration standard. At least for police work, I would use bonded bullets for 9mm which are the Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger Bonded, and Federal Tactical Bonded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    ATK Testing Sacramento 2007:
    HST 147gr: 9" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 147gr: 12" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Santa Clara 2007:
    HST 147gr: 7" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 147gr: 9.5" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Riverside 2007:
    HST 147gr: 7.75" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 147gr: 8.75" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 147gr: 9.75" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Los Angeles 2007:
    HST 147gr: 7.5" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 147gr: 10" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Aurora 2008:
    HST 147gr: 14.25" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 124gr+P: 15.25" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 124gr+P: 9" of penetration through auto glass

    ATK Testing Ft. Collins 2008:
    HST 147gr: 9.5" of penetration through auto glass
    SXT 127gr+P+: 10.75" of penetration through auto glass
    GS 147gr: 11.25" of penetration through auto glass
    GD 124gr+P: 12.25" of penetration through auto glass


    The only test where the HST came close to the FBI minimum penetration requirement of 12" was on the Aurora test which in my opinion was a fluke. So, it is 1 for 6 in good windshield penetration.

    As for the Gold Dot, in its various grain weights it was 3 for 4 in good windshield penetration in these tests.

    The 9mm in general sucks at windshield penetration which was one of the reasons why the FBI moved away from it in the early 1990s and was discussion in Agent Urey Patrick's "10mm Notes". This is evident in regular jacketed bullet technolgy which breaks apart when it impacts a windshield, loses its momentum, and results in shallow penetration. The 10mm/.40S&W is thicker throughout the length of the bullet, and is able to stay together better through a windshield and it can meet that 12" penetration standard with older jacketed bullet technolgy. Bonded bullets stay together better through a windshield and in 9mm are able to meet that 12" FBI penetration standard. At least for police work, I would use bonded bullets for 9mm which are the Speer Gold Dot, Winchester Ranger Bonded, and Federal Tactical Bonded.

    No doubt bonded bullets will outperform HST in glass. I was just impressed with the HST's performance for a non bonded bullet, as they had good weight retention and didn't have core/jacket separation in the tests I saw, while their bare gel results were far superior. iirc, the ATK rep said the bullet was tweaked a little bit in the last year or two, maybe that would explain it being better in the shoots I've seen. I'll see him at SHOT and ask him.

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    I don't ever recall seeing the P9HST3 (124+P version of the HST) on Doc's recommended list. I may be wrong. My guess is that he has probably not tested it, as it has performed well in the limited testing I have seen. I would not be hesitant to carry any of the 9mm HST rounds. FWIW, the P9HST1 and P9HST3 are the most readily available HSTvarieties in my area.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    In regard to the HST 147gr and 147gr+P. It's the same bullet, just one is thrown faster.
    The ATK rep that I recently emailed said that the two 147gr projectiles were not the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jake'sDad View Post
    iirc, the ATK rep said the bullet was tweaked a little bit in the last year or two, maybe that would explain it being better in the shoots I've seen. I'll see him at SHOT and ask him.
    Unless Federal bonded the jacket to the lead core, and then rounded out the nose to make it beefier like they did with their bonded 135gr+P, "tweaking" won't make much difference in its performance against windshields. Their 135gr+P bonded was designed specifically to tackle windhshields. It's harder to make, which is why it is more expensive.

    Winchester's 147gr Ranger Talon does better in the windshield tests than the HST. Probably because the jacket is thick around the nose, and it is wrapped deeply into the nose cavity so that the construction is tougher.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leatherneck556 View Post

    The ATK rep that I recently emailed said that the two 147gr projectiles were not the same.
    Would that be the same “rep” who claimed that Federal XM9HA, loaded with the 147 grain HST projectile, has a muzzle velocity of 1180 fps?

    http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread....ighlight=xm9ha



    Tell me, which two bullets pictured below were pulled from P9HST2 and which two bullets were pulled from P9HST4?




    I’ve chronographed multiple lots of both P9HST2 and P9HST4 from a Glock 19 with a 4” barrel. On average, the P9HST4 runs approximately 20 fps faster than the P9HST2 when fired from the Glock 19. BFD.


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    We have scheduled P9HST3 and P9HST4 for testing this year.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    Unless Federal bonded the jacket to the lead core, and then rounded out the nose to make it beefier like they did with their bonded 135gr+P, "tweaking" won't make much difference in its performance against windshields.
    Well, I don't know if that's completely fair to say, since the HST and the SXT both do better on glass than some other conventional hollow points. Clearly there have been improvements made in conventional non-bonded ammo.

    Quote Originally Posted by Entropy View Post
    Winchester's 147gr Ranger Talon does better in the windshield tests than the HST. Probably because the jacket is thick around the nose, and it is wrapped deeply into the nose cavity so that the construction is tougher.
    Hmmm.... in every shoot I've seen, the 9 147 SXT had complete jacket core separation. When it does penetrate better, it's the core doing so, and the retained weight is substantially reduced.

    Quote Originally Posted by Molon View Post
    Would that be the same “rep” who claimed that Federal XM9HA, loaded with the 147 grain HST projectile, has a muzzle velocity of 1180 fps?
    Don't know. Which "rep" said that?

    It was Bernie Ness, their federal government rep, that I recall saying the HST had been tweaked since it's introduction. I should have said that before, as I usually ignore claimed statements made by factory "reps" that aren't identified. I'll see him this week at SHOT, so I'll ask and see if my memory is correct. If I'm wrong, I'll amend my post.

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    Thank you for sharing those results Mo. Info like that is good to know.

    I'll take a shot and say bullets one and three are from the +P rounds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SWAT Lt. View Post
    I would not be hesitant to carry any of the 9mm HST rounds. FWIW, the P9HST1 and P9HST3 are the most readily available HSTvarieties in my area.
    Just found the P9HST1 here in town this weekend for $25 per 50. Not much else on the shelves for carry ammo.

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    Im subscribing to this thread as I'm curious. I have been satisfied with the 124+P rounds but I'm open to learning more about the 147.
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    For those interested, we have the P9HST2 in stock!

    http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ion&key=P9HST2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Falz24 View Post
    P9HST2 is 147gr Federal HST

    P9HST4 is 147gr +P Federal HST


    Which one would you choose? Why?
    P9HST2... because it is good enough, and who needs the added recoil of the +P...

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