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Thread: Magazine capacity, munitions, and NYPD

  1. #1
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    Magazine capacity, munitions, and NYPD

    The most recently released NYPD SOP-9 "Annual Firearms Discharge Report" data from 2011 document that 7 rounds or less were fired in 65% of NYPD OIS incidents, while in 35% of cases officers needed to fire more than 7 shots to stop the threat. Interestingly in 29% of the incidents, more than 10 shots were required to end the violent encounter.

    For 2010, in 67% of the NYPD OIS incidents 7 rounds or less were fired; however in 33% of the incidents more than 7 shots were required to subdue the threat. In 21% of lethal force encounters more than 10 shots were required.

    So if NYPD officers need more than 7 shots to stop violent attackers greater than 1/3 of the time, why would innocent civilians who likely have no body armor, no radio, no partner, no cover units, no less lethal options, no duty belt with extra magazines, yet who are being confronted by the same violent felons as the police need less ammunition than the NYPD officers?

    By arbitrarily restricting magazine capacity for civilians to 7 or 10 rounds, the most current NYPD SOP-9 data strongly suggests that in 1/4 to 1/3 of incidents civilians will likely run out of ammunition before the violent attacker has been stopped...

    When law enforcement agencies select munitions intended for Lethal Force Use, the primary requirement is to choose munitions that can rapidly and reliably incapacitate and stop hostile individuals who pose an immediate potentially life threatening danger to public safety and prevent them from continuing their violent actions. In addition, the munitions are carefully selected to try and minimize danger to innocent bystanders, as well as officers.

    If a member of the public is sadly forced to use lethal force to defend themselves, their family, or other innocent citizens, the requirements for lethal force munitions are EXACTLY the same as needed by the Police in such a horrible eventuality--to quickly stop the violent criminal without endangering other innocent people. In fact, it would likely be prudent and wise for a legally armed citizen to seek out the same tested and proven munitions that are used by police in order to have the greatest chance of safely and successfully surviving a lethal force encounter.

    As the progenitor of modern law enforcement, Sir Robert Peel, cogently noted:

    "The police are the public and the public are the police; the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence.”

    In short, civilian citizens should use the same munitions chosen by police in their community, as the lethal force requirements are identical and the anatomy, physiology, and incapacitation potential of a violent felon does not suddenly change whether confronted by law enforcement officers or private citizens.

  2. #2
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    Great write up.

    Mind if I share this with people via email and facebook?

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    DocGKR,

    That is good information to have. Should be required reading for the country given the current trend to have the uneducated arbitrarily choose a number of rounds necessary for use.
    "Why "zombies"? Because calling it 'training to stop a rioting, starving, panicking, desperate mob after a complete governmental financial collapse apocalypse' is just too wordy." or in light of current events: training to stop a rioting, looting, molotov cocktail throwing, skinny jeans wearing, uneducated bunch of lemmings duped by, or working directly for, a marxist organization attempting to tear down America while hiding behind a race-based name

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    Thanks for sharing. Really glad the NYPD decided (or maybe was forced?) to keep such statistics. Do you happen to have a link to source (NYPD SOP-9 "Annual Firearms Discharge Report")?
    Quote Originally Posted by skd_tactical View Post
    It's a shot in the dark ... I have a better chance of guessing when my wife will be mad for no reason.
    "If your not using an aimpoint, you need to take a ****ing piss test." -LAV

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    The data is public info and can be distributed widely: http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/downloa...eport_2011.pdf

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    They started talking more than a week ago about the repeal of the 7 round limit. I cant say for sure but I believe its off the table here in NY they have settled for the 10 but we are going for broke with the law suit. I want 16 in my glock.
    "After I shot myself, my training took over and I called my parents..." Texas Grebner

    "Take me with a grain of salt, my sarcasm does not relate well over the internet"

    Jonathan Morehouse

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    Interesting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DocGKR View Post

    In short, civilian citizens should use the same munitions chosen by police in their community, as the lethal force requirements are identical and the anatomy, physiology, and incapacitation potential of a violent felon does not suddenly change whether confronted by law enforcement officers or private citizens.
    Excellent.

    (1) Permission to use/post elsewhere?

    (2) You have used data, logic, and big words in the above = must be ignore by proponents of gun control

    (3) your post:

    - Will

    General Performance/Fitness Advice for all

    www.BrinkZone.com

    LE/Mil specific info:

    https://brinkzone.com/category/swatleomilitary/

    “Those who do not view armed self defense as a basic human right, ignore the mass graves of those who died on their knees at the hands of tyrants.”

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    Very interesting and well done report. Thanks for sharing that. Unless I missed it, nowhere in the report were statistics for number of hits vs shots fired. Just curious really. Any idea why that data would be omitted from an otherwise exhaustive report? Knowledgeable speculation is OK too.
    Last edited by JimmyB62; 03-24-13 at 18:25.

  10. #10
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    JimmyB62: See p24 of the 2011 SOP-9 report ("Objective Completion Rate).

    Will Brink: See my post above.

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