Page 22 of 23 FirstFirst ... 1220212223 LastLast
Results 211 to 220 of 227

Thread: The Defensive Shotgun; How we make it work--MilCopp Blog

  1. #211
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Location
    Classified
    Posts
    43
    Feedback Score
    0
    Great write-up, I've been thinking about picking up a shotgun lately.

  2. #212
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    13,549
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by 26 Inf View Post
    You ever shot those out of a a rifled barrel? Talk about a tack driver at 100 yards. They do okay through a smooth bore but that rifling steps it up a notch, obviously.

    Thread drift, now you've got me thinking about rifled shotgun barrels - I've always been a fan of rifled barrels for the 12 gauge less-lethal rounds - they popped the old bean bags open and flying square within four feet of the muzzle; with the sock rounds it is a rotating donut of hurt. Spreads impact over a larger area so you can deploy much closer.

    Yep. It really is just like a rifle. I had the fortune of taking Advanced Shotgun and 100 yard hits, smoothbore or no, with slugs inspired a lot of confidence.

    Esp. with rifle sights or ghost ring (I prefer Ghost Ring)

    It's why for a standard police shotgun, the 870 really can't be beat. Easy to swap barrels. There are niches where a 20-22" rifled barrel and an optic can supplant a rifle if needed.

    But a 14" patrol shotgun with a Modified choke can, again, fill some niches just inherent in police weaponry.

    A rifle is a good 60% solution but a good door knocker can be quite handy.
    Wake the f*ck up, Samurai

  3. #213
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    1,188
    Feedback Score
    0
    ...and the 870 is cheap. For someone on a tight budget, that makes it a good first firearm.
    “It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense.” Mark Twain

  4. #214
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    central Texas
    Posts
    1,947
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    If you want a shotgun, the 870 is a great choice if one wants a pump gun. It has a proven track record and is easily maintained. Parts are commonplace. The village idiot(almost)can work on it.

  5. #215
    Join Date
    May 2015
    Posts
    11
    Feedback Score
    0
    I normally make it my personal policy to avoid acrimonious debates on the Error Net. However in this case I feel compelled to share my experiences based on my 35 year law enforcement career, former advisor to the police training commission and current University Criminal Justice Instructor.

    There is a reason the Vietcong posted bounties and threatened Americans captured utilizing shotguns with torture and ultimately death. During World War I Germany protested the American use of shotguns and threatened to execute anyone captured with a shotgun or shotgun ammunition.

    The facts as I understand them are 90% of all police lethal force confrontations occur at 30 feet or less; the typical police rifle shot is taken at 22 feet. (The operative words here are typical police rifle shot. I am not including long-range marksmanship). An officer who is competent with a shotgun is capable of delivering less-lethal projectiles, chemical agents as well as the traditional projectiles associated with shot guns. Various studies conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Los Angeles police department and the New York City Police Department have concluded shotguns have the highest first round hit probability and are the weapons most likely to neutralize an assailant with one shot.

    The facts I have cited beg the question why has the shotgun fallen from favor? Agencies as a rule have failed to mandate an adequate amount of training to make an officer proficient with a shotgun. Police recruits/cadets vociferously complain about the recoil pulse of the shotgun. My personal opinion is the shotgun is just not Tacticool.

    Just My Dose Centavos.

  6. #216
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    9,929
    Feedback Score
    1 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by BLACKROCK6 View Post
    The facts I have cited beg the question why has the shotgun fallen from favor? Agencies as a rule have failed to mandate an adequate amount of training to make an officer proficient with a shotgun. Police recruits/cadets vociferously complain about the recoil pulse of the shotgun. My personal opinion is the shotgun is just not Tacticool.

    Just My Dose Centavos.
    I believe there are a variety of reasons that the police shotgun has fallen from favor, some of them legitimate, others not so much.

    First and foremost, I think the long march from the police shotgun to the patrol rifle (ever wonder why it wasn't called patrol shotgun?) began in 1997 when the LESO 1033 program was enacted. As you know, this act allowed the transfer of small arms and other military equipment to LE from 'excess' government stock. A 2014 report states that 11.000 law enforcement agencies are registered to receive LESO 1033 support.

    The LESO 1033 program was not the only impetus. Fewer and fewer police recruits were coming to police agencies with any knowledge of the shotgun. Once upon a time the assumption might have been that the type of person becoming an LE was likely to have served in the military and/or hunted. By the late 70's, early 80's this was no longer the case, at least in my experience.

    However, LE agencies, by-and-large, are slow to adapt except in the face of earth shattering events. So the LE shotgun continued in use because of tradition and cost. Why would agencies get rid of their shotguns and replace them with rifles that cost two to three times as much, and would require many agencies to construct new range facilities?

    Coincidentally, in 1997, the same year LESO was enacted, that earth shattering event occurred. The LAPD was stymied in it's response to two armored-up armed robbers wielding what have been commonly described as AK-47's in what has become known as the North Hollywood Shootout. Suddenly, even more so than after the FBI Miami Massacre, the widespread perception was that the police were more and more being outgunned by bad guys, armored bad guys to boot.

    So, IMO, that's the history. Before we go on to your comments I think it is germane to the conversation to put forth that I was our academy's primary shotgun trainer for many years, and remained so even after becoming one of our primary patrol rifle trainers. I like shotguns.

    90% of all police gunfights take place at 30 feet or less.

    Fun fact, historically, nearly 50% occur at ranges of 5 feet or less. Kind of a side track, but, the circumstances involving most police shootings involve officers who did not know (or had not acknowledged to themselves) that they were entering into a dangerous situation. The weapon most used is the sidearm. In circumstances where the shotgun or rifle is deployed, the officer generally has some idea something is up. If this is the case, ideally, we would want longer engagement ranges which brings us into the area where the rifle is advantageous.

    An officer who is competent with a shotgun is capable of delivering less-lethal projectiles, chemical agents as well as the traditional projectiles associated with shot guns.

    The rub here is competency. Give me 8 hours of training and I will bring a shooter closer to patrol competency with the rifle than the shotgun. Give me three days and I'll still be inclined to believe rifle over shotgun.

    There are a couple of reasons for this. Some officers struggle with the mechanics of holding the shotgun and cycling it. Those same officers generally struggle with the rifle also, but it is more pronounced with the shotgun. Many smaller officers find that the shotgun's LOP is too great for them. This leads to compromising proper mount and, as a result, an unpleasant shooting experience. With the patrol rifle, the support hand can be positioned differently to alleviate some strength issues, and the LOP is easily adjusted.

    Various studies conducted by the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Los Angeles police department and the New York City Police Department have concluded shotguns have the highest first round hit probability and are the weapons most likely to neutralize an assailant with one shot.

    As I mentioned earlier, one of the concerns is an armored subject. In this respect the rifle reigns supreme.

    And yes, I agree, the M4 is Tacitcooler. Ever wonder why WWII vets didn't run around all over the place with M1 Garands?
    Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the President... - Theodore Roosevelt, Lincoln and Free Speech, Metropolitan Magazine, Volume 47, Number 6, May 1918.

    Every Communist must grasp the truth. Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. Our principle is that the Party commands the gun, and the gun must never be allowed to command the Party Mao Zedong, 6 November, 1938 - speech to the Communist Patry of China's sixth Central Committee

  7. #217
    Join Date
    Oct 2015
    Location
    The Sticks, TN
    Posts
    4,152
    Feedback Score
    6 (100%)
    Good summary, 26. I know in my department and surrounding departments the swing towards the patrol rifle started with the North Hollywood shootout. We allowed officers to qual and carry with personally owned rifles and even ended up with a bunch of M-14s from the feds.
    Philippians 2:10-11

    To argue with a person who renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead. ~ Thomas Paine

    “The greatest conspiracy theory is the notion that your government cares about you”- unknown.

  8. #218
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Posts
    412
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    So with almost a decade between the original post and now, is there anything in the original post that would need revisiting? IMO, most of the original post probably still applies, but the training, and equipment available (i.e. ammo (flite control), reliable optics, etc..) have changed a bit. Personally, i've recently begun to re-discover the shotgun and it's capabilities.
    As the great warrior poet Ice-Cube once said, "If the day does not require an AK, it is good."

  9. #219
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Posts
    77
    Feedback Score
    0
    I grew up shooting skeet, trap and then later clays. As such, I don't really have anything that qualifies as an HD shotgun, but I've recently started looking. Leaning towards an 870, but sourcing one right now is probably not easy. I might go custom/semi custom, and then take it to a class or two. The Nighthawk Overseers are speaking to me.

  10. #220
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Richmond, Va
    Posts
    412
    Feedback Score
    2 (100%)
    Quote Originally Posted by ghideon View Post
    I grew up shooting skeet, trap and then later clays. As such, I don't really have anything that qualifies as an HD shotgun, but I've recently started looking. Leaning towards an 870, but sourcing one right now is probably not easy. I might go custom/semi custom, and then take it to a class or two. The Nighthawk Overseers are speaking to me.
    Do yourself a favor and look at the Beretta 1301 tactical.
    As the great warrior poet Ice-Cube once said, "If the day does not require an AK, it is good."

Page 22 of 23 FirstFirst ... 1220212223 LastLast

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •