SureFire's business practices suck!

[PPGMD]

I am an avid user of the SF lights, but their business practices suck donkey cock.
They only allow dealers to sell at MSRP; and MSRP is a huge % (getting into womens' fashion clothing store level margins) over dealer cost. Their pricing requirement is not MAP, they specifically state that products must be SOLD at their chosen price. Bundling will work, so long as you (the dealer) can show that you are selling the SF items at MSRP and you are not losing money on the added items.
Try getting a clearance authorization letter from them, so you can dump the older production lower output LED or incan units when SF comes out with a new production standard. "That light is one of our most popular. We couldn't give you permission to sell it below MSRP." So you are stuck having to sell the old stock lights at non-internet based locations, with price tags reflecting MSRP and having to verbally inform customers of the discount.

I've never paid MSRP on a Surefire light. And that isn't with bundling, simply buying the light for the price marked on the price tag. Now almost all my lights were purchased at local stores, not on the internet.

[HawaiianM4]

Bought the E2D LED Defender for about $150 and brought it home. Have been using for a couple of months on almost a daily basis. I have lit up a couple of bad characters that meant trouble, that end up walking away from me. So that said I cant be happier. Is it expensive the answer is yes. But then again how expensive is something that doesnt work when you need it.

[GKoenig]

SureFire is a complex business operating in a very broad market that serves such a huge variety of users - from civilians who want a nice flashlight to walk the dog with to "Tier One Operators" stalking bad guys through a cave in Afghanistan and everyone in between. What connects these disparate groups is the fact that they all want a nice, durable, powerful light and they all know that SureFire is the de facto brand leader. Serving so many masters is a difficult thing for any company to do cohesively and without pissing someone off; especially when that company is so deeply rooted in engineering (vice marketing).

In my estimation, SF has a couple of primary problems:

1- The switch to LED lights takes much of SureFire's historical durability and light output advantages off of the table.

2- The reliance on government purchases in an environment where DoD and homeland security spending has tripled since 2001 is coming to an end.

3- The primary, mission critical component of their lights is now an off-the-shelf part available to anybody. SF's incandescent technology was proprietary and entirely owned by SF. To match SF, you had to go design your own bulbs and tool up for production.

It is this last point that is the most important. Anyone can go onto DigiKey and buy the same LEDs (manufacturer, tint, bin) that SureFire uses. In fact, given SF's huge lead time in creating a new light, you can typically find LEDs putting out far more lumens per watt at better color temperatures than what SF is shipping. That is why you now have Fenix, NiteCore, Zebra, Malkoff/Elzetta, Innova... the list grows every day.

All these guys need to do is step up their game in two departments; First, they need to stop adding useless gimmick features (infinitly variable output, complex modes, crappy body features that look "cool") and focus seriously on basic utility. Second, they need to stop playing the Emitter of the Month game and use some basic engineering and manufacturing prowess to build lights on par with SF. This is a straightforward, but non-trivial exercise, but it is totally possible.

For most people, a Fenix is more flashlight than they will ever need, in a tiny package that delivers good enough quality. Elzetta is the first guys to build a light on-par with SureFire, but they need to step up and make a pistol mounted weapon light and a small, single cell EDC light to fill out the lineup. Once they do, others will follow. SureFire's dominance is - at their current path - not much longer lived.

I think they see this writing on the wall and have decided to double down and work on technologies that only they have the engineering and manufacturing skills to implement. Onboard recharging. Magnetic ring switching. Intuitive multi-function tailcaps (the new 4 way switch at SHOT). As great and impressive as these things are, the pricing will make them unobtainable to anyone but the biggest geer queers and government agencies who don't care about equipment costs.

SureFire will need to re-strategize, or the invisible hand is gonna slap them hard in the next decade.

[Littlelebowski]

You might not want to pay their prices, but thousands upon thousand of shooters, law enforcement agencies, and the military do.

I had NO idea!

[mx124]

SureFire is a complex business operating in a very broad market that serves such a huge variety of users - from civilians who want a nice flashlight to walk the dog with to "Tier One Operators" stalking bad guys through a cave in Afghanistan and everyone in between. What connects these disparate groups is the fact that they all want a nice, durable, powerful light and they all know that SureFire is the de facto brand leader. Serving so many masters is a difficult thing for any company to do cohesively and without pissing someone off; especially when that company is so deeply rooted in engineering (vice marketing).

In my estimation, SF has a couple of primary problems:

1- The switch to LED lights takes much of SureFire's historical durability and light output advantages off of the table.

2- The reliance on government purchases in an environment where DoD and homeland security spending has tripled since 2001 is coming to an end.

3- The primary, mission critical component of their lights is now an off-the-shelf part available to anybody. SF's incandescent technology was proprietary and entirely owned by SF. To match SF, you had to go design your own bulbs and tool up for production.

It is this last point that is the most important. Anyone can go onto DigiKey and buy the same LEDs (manufacturer, tint, bin) that SureFire uses. In fact, given SF's huge lead time in creating a new light, you can typically find LEDs putting out far more lumens per watt at better color temperatures than what SF is shipping. That is why you now have Fenix, NiteCore, Zebra, Malkoff/Elzetta, Innova... the list grows every day.

All these guys need to do is step up their game in two departments; First, they need to stop adding useless gimmick features (infinitly variable output, complex modes, crappy body features that look "cool") and focus seriously on basic utility. Second, they need to stop playing the Emitter of the Month game and use some basic engineering and manufacturing prowess to build lights on par with SF. This is a straightforward, but non-trivial exercise, but it is totally possible.

For most people, a Fenix is more flashlight than they will ever need, in a tiny package that delivers good enough quality. Elzetta is the first guys to build a light on-par with SureFire, but they need to step up and make a pistol mounted weapon light and a small, single cell EDC light to fill out the lineup. Once they do, others will follow. SureFire's dominance is - at their current path - not much longer lived.

I think they see this writing on the wall and have decided to double down and work on technologies that only they have the engineering and manufacturing skills to implement. Onboard recharging. Magnetic ring switching. Intuitive multi-function tailcaps (the new 4 way switch at SHOT). As great and impressive as these things are, the pricing will make them unobtainable to anyone but the biggest geer queers and government agencies who don't care about equipment costs.

SureFire will need to re-strategize, or the invisible hand is gonna slap them hard in the next decade.

Agree 100%. Great post.

[M193 BALL]

Been a surefire user for close to 20yrs
Im sold on there quality !
Every surefire Ive bought has been Quality
The price seems Fair to me

[patrol120]

SureFire is a complex business operating in a very broad market that serves such a huge variety of users - from civilians who want a nice flashlight to walk the dog with to "Tier One Operators" stalking bad guys through a cave in Afghanistan and everyone in between. What connects these disparate groups is the fact that they all want a nice, durable, powerful light and they all know that SureFire is the de facto brand leader. Serving so many masters is a difficult thing for any company to do cohesively and without pissing someone off; especially when that company is so deeply rooted in engineering (vice marketing).

In my estimation, SF has a couple of primary problems:

1- The switch to LED lights takes much of SureFire's historical durability and light output advantages off of the table.

2- The reliance on government purchases in an environment where DoD and homeland security spending has tripled since 2001 is coming to an end.

3- The primary, mission critical component of their lights is now an off-the-shelf part available to anybody. SF's incandescent technology was proprietary and entirely owned by SF. To match SF, you had to go design your own bulbs and tool up for production.

It is this last point that is the most important. Anyone can go onto DigiKey and buy the same LEDs (manufacturer, tint, bin) that SureFire uses. In fact, given SF's huge lead time in creating a new light, you can typically find LEDs putting out far more lumens per watt at better color temperatures than what SF is shipping. That is why you now have Fenix, NiteCore, Zebra, Malkoff/Elzetta, Innova... the list grows every day.

All these guys need to do is step up their game in two departments; First, they need to stop adding useless gimmick features (infinitly variable output, complex modes, crappy body features that look "cool") and focus seriously on basic utility. Second, they need to stop playing the Emitter of the Month game and use some basic engineering and manufacturing prowess to build lights on par with SF. This is a straightforward, but non-trivial exercise, but it is totally possible.

For most people, a Fenix is more flashlight than they will ever need, in a tiny package that delivers good enough quality. Elzetta is the first guys to build a light on-par with SureFire, but they need to step up and make a pistol mounted weapon light and a small, single cell EDC light to fill out the lineup. Once they do, others will follow. SureFire's dominance is - at their current path - not much longer lived.

I think they see this writing on the wall and have decided to double down and work on technologies that only they have the engineering and manufacturing skills to implement. Onboard recharging. Magnetic ring switching. Intuitive multi-function tailcaps (the new 4 way switch at SHOT). As great and impressive as these things are, the pricing will make them unobtainable to anyone but the biggest geer queers and government agencies who don't care about equipment costs.

SureFire will need to re-strategize, or the invisible hand is gonna slap them hard in the next decade.

I completely disagree. There is not one company anywhere on the horizon that has any chance whatsoever of challenging Surefire for their core customer base. Elzetta seems to have a quality product, but I have seen no indication they are making any sort of inroad to the either the LE or military market, which is where reputations are made. I have yet to see one in the wild. Pentagon had a shot, but they did so only by copying Surefire's formula.

The majority of the things you tout as being the demise of Surefire are features real end-users have no use for, and often time actually decrease the value of the light as a tool. Those of us who rely on a light do not need multiple stages, etc. Strobe is the only real feature often asked for, and the utility of this feature is much debated, with the bulk of those in the know feeling its barely more than a gimmick.

The flashlight hobby craze is fairly new, and wholly inconsequential to Surefire's bottom line. The global war on Terror is quite far from being over, regardless of the current administration. The location of the stage may shift, but the show will go on. Furthermore, Law Enforcement is beginning to see the advantage to quality lights. Surefire knows and understands this, hence the considerable price break to these markets.

[NongShim]

This stuff blows me away. If a given product doesn't fit your needs for whatever reason-price, durability, performance, etc-don't buy/use/sell it.

Pump the breaks on the comments like, "they sell to the military and American people, so they shouldn't charge so much." This isn't Communism/Socialism. Last I checked, this was still America, and (for now) Capitalism is still the name of the game. Surefire makes an excellent product, that people are clamoring to buy. I can't believe I'm seeing people say that Surefire should lower their prices, simply because they (the complainers) don't want to pay so much. If you don't want it, don't buy it. Until the day that Surefire takes money from someone without in turn giving that person a product in return, it's really stupid to call it "theft" when someone willfully hands over a wad of money for a product. No one is forcing you to buy Surefire products. Surefire doesn't have a monopoly on the flashlight/weaponlight market. There are other companies making similar products. If Surefire's prices really were too high, civilians wouldn't buy them. Individuals are still buying lights, and will continue to do so, until the prices are indeed too high.

There are plenty of Surefire products that I won't buy, because they don't fill a need I have. There are other products I have found a need for, and they are great. As for Surefire service? I would rate them very highly. Everyone I have ever dealt with from the company has been very polite, knowledgeable, and has bent over backwards to help me. In my experience, Surefire service has been better than LaRue's, which everyone seems to love.

[Robb Jensen]

This thread is done. If you don't like a companies business practices, prices etc. vote with your wallet and buy something else.