JD, I'm not enjoying this thread any longer, and I don't believe I want to answer any more of your questions regarding my motivation. I think my questions were simple and clear and made in good faith; if you don't want to reply to them or don't understand them, then don't. The rest of us will just have to plod along our pedestrian ways without your benevolent guidance.Jake'sDad: Other than DocGR's statement of "The 124 gr HST is a better load than the 115 gr 9BP", what data are you trying to reference from that link?
Last edited by Jwalker; 02-02-11 at 12:04. Reason: One extra gratuitous insult
The OP asked a genuine question because he wanted information. You've had ample opportunity to provide him and the rest of us with the needed data and have instead chosen to simply criticize what we don't know instead. You then choose to follow it up by telling him this site may not be for him because he doesn't have the very information that he came here to get.
I can assure you that discussions like this are not very helpful or welcoming to those new to the site like the OP. If you have good information you should try sharing it rather than withholding and talking down to others for not knowing what you know.
Last edited by wahoo95; 02-02-11 at 12:21. Reason: Grammar
If those who have gathered their information from gun magazines and discredited books, are threatened, and become defensive at simple questions, there is probably little chance for intelligent discourse.
I learn from this site almost every time I look at it, even after a lifetime of shooting and teaching, but I come to it with an open mind.
Last edited by Jake'sDad; 02-02-11 at 12:31.
Like I said, if you have the right info you should provide it rather than talk down to people and withhold. If you really wanted to steer him in the right direction you would have done so already rather than respond the way you did and continue to do.
You have yet to provide him with any credible data or answer to his question/statement based on your experiences or that of others. If you don't like his statement then correct it. Nobody became defensive at your questions, they only asked for clarity....meaning they wanted the correct info.
Not trying to start or participate in a pissing match, however I do want you to realize that many who come to this site will be misinformed and looking for answers. Best thing those here can do is provide answers rather than make them feel unwelcome. By providing the correct information you help in preventing misinformation from speading.
Last edited by wahoo95; 02-02-11 at 12:55. Reason: Grammar
Knock off the petty bickering!
When we re-tested some older 115 gr loads we got some interesting results:
9 mm Federal 115 gr JHP 9BP, Glock 17, gel calib= 9.0 cm @ 596 f/s
Bare Gelatin--vel=1136, pen=9.4, RD=0.62, RL=0.28, RW=109.1
Things got strange with the Denim testing of the 9BP. In every 5 round test, there was at least one bullet which plugged up and failed to expand. The bullets which failed to expand had pen=20+ inches, RD=0.35”, RL=0.52”, RW=115.3.
Glock 17, gel calib= 9.5 cm @ 605 f/s.
Results below do NOT include the bullets which failed to expand!
4 layers of Denim--vel=1139, pen=12.8, RD=0.53, RL=0.41, RW=114.5
Sig P226, gel calib= 9.5 cm @ 605 f/s.
Results below do NOT include the bullets which failed to expand!
4 layers of Denim--vel=1111, pen=11.1, RD=0.55, RL=0.38, RW=114.7
The Federal 115 gr 9BP has insufficient penetration in bare gelatin and has 20 to 40% failure to expand in denim testing. I personally would not choose to use it given all the better options currently available.
With the exception of the Barnes 115 gr XPB all copper projectile, in general, most 9 mm 115 gr loads have demonstrated greater inconsistency, insufficient penetration, poor intermediate barrier capability, and failure to expand in denim testing than other 9mm bullets. For those individuals wanting to use lighter weight, supersonic 9 mm’s, I think a better alternative than the vast majority of 115 gr loads is to use the slightly heavier 124 to 127 gr bullets or the Barnes 115 gr all copper bullet, as noted here: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887
Thanks, doc - excellent info, and to the point.
Do you have the same info for the 9BPLE? The +P+ stuff is very cheap on our state bid, I'd like info on why the more expensive ammo should be purchased instead.
I know the numbers are likely pretty close, but the actual data would be nice to have.
BTW, I have found both of these 115gr Federal loads to be very accurate from several different pistols, so much so that I have used it for match shooting in the past, and for small game and varmints.
Christ. Now I have dig out a bunch of pre-Internet dead tree pubs to defend a simple statement of my general, uncontroversial recollection of something?
Where's my ignore button?
Ken in Illinois
What seperates this site from others, especially this particular section, is that we prefer to deal with facts. The study of terminal ballistics is extremely important, and many people take it very seriously. Hence why when assertions are made that dont always "jive" questions will be asked. When you make an assertion, its always best to be prepared to acknowledge it, and present data supporting it. It's not meant to be personal, but it needs to be professional.
When someone says "it was one of the best loads" that person shouldnt be offended when someone else asks for facts that support such a statement. It is not up to the person questioning the assertion to provide data. Saying XXXXXX City PD uses the load isnt data.
Last edited by Fail-Safe; 02-02-11 at 17:24.
It's under "User CP/Edit Ignore List."HeavyDuty: Where's my ignore button?
My usual rule for joining new fora such as this is to look at several multi-page (and therefore controversial) threads and find - easily - several people to populate initially my "Ignore" lists. It saves effort by not having to waste time on them in the future. I'll not forget again.
In order to maintain the high standards of this website, it would be best if we limit the 'cite your source' requests to more substantial claims.
Jwalker, sorry you had to go through this inquisition. This place is usually better behaved.
Doc, you should lock this thread.
Sometimes "generally held views", aren't generally held, by those who actually know what they were talking about.
Compare the data on the 9BP posted here from Evan Marshal's site, or the opinion of this loads effectiveness, with the data and opinion posted by Doc. Notice the discrepancies?
9BP was the darling of gun magazine writers throughout the 90's who touted it in opposition to much better performing 147 grain loads that were available. It became legendary for it's "street performance" pushed by the same writers. That legend continues on today for many who haven't familiarized themselves with the work of folks like Fackler, Wolberg, and Roberts, or the experiences of agencies that switched from 115 grain loads to 147 grain loads in the 1980's or 1990's.
That's why I asked the simple questions that seemed to upset a couple posters, and made them so defensive.
I carried and was issued 9BP and 9BPLE back in the mid to late 1980's--it was better than some of the other options available back then, as it was accurate, reliable, and penetrated better than loads like the Silvertip, Glasser, and other such nonsense. With the advent of Dr. Fackler's work, the wound ballistic workshops at Quantico and founding of the FBI BRF, as well as the work of the IWBA, improved loads were developed that offered better penetration, improved intermediate barrier performance, and enhanced terminal performance consistency.
As I have stated before, bullet designs like the 9BP/BPLE, Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons, Ranger Bonded, and Ranger Partition are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's.
It is time to move on...