"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"

[KintlaLake]

To be honest, this thread is kind of confusing. One minute you guys are saying...

The purpose of this thread, I think, was to inspire exactly the opposite reaction (although it's pretty predictable that some could see it as snobbery, which it's not).

Quality, it seems to me, comprises performance, reliability, and durability -- all in the context of intended use.

Just divorce yourself from pride-in-purchase and look at quality -- in context. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm goin' to Hineygate.

[QuickStrike]

I just bought a LWRC piston carbine and am currently in the process of personalizing it/bringing it to snuff.

Ordered a couple of those D-fender rings for the extractor. It came with an O-ring around the extractor spring and had an H2 Buffer, but the receiver extension doesn't look mil-spec. So I'm replacing that.

The carrier key is put on umm... differently.


Should I still stake the screws?

Other upgrade ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks!

[paulosantos]

The purpose of this thread, I think, was to inspire exactly the opposite reaction (although it's pretty predictable that some could see it as snobbery, which it's not).

Quality, it seems to me, comprises performance, reliability, and durability -- all in the context of intended use.

Just divorce yourself from pride-in-purchase and look at quality -- in context. Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm goin' to Hineygate.

It is not the pride. I just use what I am issued and am just happy that I was at least issued something and am happy with it. I'd rather have a tier two AR then no AR at all. I shoot close to 200 rounds per week by the way, not 100 rounds per year.

This thread is actually good, but it should have been combined with the chart that was made. That is my point. At the bottom of the chart, Rob_s should have put what he wrote on this thread. Then it would have all made sense. By the way. I am just playing the devil's advocate, if you guys can't figure it out. I can tell what is good shit from bad and I can also tell good advice from bad and when someone gives confusing or contradictory advice. This thread is like someone telling guys that ony BMW's and Mercedez-Benz are the only good cars because they have all of these features and that everything else sucks. Then later on telling us that Honda's, Toyota's, Fords, etc, are ok for regular use and they shouldn't feel bad for having a Honda Accord. Get my point?

[rob_s]

Some people are so caught up in their emotional attachment to their choice in equipment that they can't see anything else, and even project intentions, motivations, and emotions onto other people that simply aren't there.

I originally made the chart for ME. It was an attempt for me to understand the differences between the brands and put them together in a format that I could look at in a glance. I posted it here originally asking the membership for HELP in getting the information as factually correct as I could. It has since taken on a life of it's own and is being re-posted all over the internet.

At the end of the day though the chart is simply a representation of FACT. I, with the help of the membership here, have gone out of my way to do my very best to ensure that it is factually accurate. So far at least 4 manufacturers have contacted me directly in one way or another to share their opinion of the chart and inform me of errors I may have made in the chart. But it's still a representation of FACT. Those that are prone to emotional outbursts regarding those facts are making their own inferences and assumptions about the intentions of the chart. I don't know why they do this, but I guess that they are not happy with the facts that they are confronted with.

THIS thread in actuality has little to do with the chart. It is simply a list of suggestions, again compiled from various sources more knowledgeable than me, on how to make simple upgrades to a M4 pattern carbine that may be lacking in some areas to make it potentially more durable and reliable. None of the suggestions in my post come from any great armorer's knowledge that I posses. They are a compilation of suggestions that I see made over and over again by people who know what they are talking about in answer to post after post after post from people who want to improve their carbine and have more peace of mind about it's reliability, but don't know where or how to search the site to find the answers.

This entire thing is a process. I'm sharing information with the masses as I get my brain wrapped around it and get it compiled into a presentable format so that maybe someone else can benefit from it. You knew all this all along? Yay for you. I didn't, and there are a whole lot of people (as evidenced by all the threads about it) that didn't either. Hopefully they can benefit from the information.

You may not like the facts that I present, you may not like the suggestions I compile, but I'm really just the messenger here. Make use of the facts in the chart when purchasing a new rifle or make use of the suggestions in this thread if you already own a rifle, or do neither. If you see factual errors in the chart post pictures as evidence of the error and I will change the chart, if you take issue with the suggestions made in this post and can back up your opinion I will change the post. Popping up to whine and cry "my xyz rifle has x-thousand perfect rounds through it" is entirely useless, misses the ENTIRE point of the chart and this thread, and really only serve to show the lack of understanding on the part of the poster.

For the hundredth time, and clearly not for the last, nobody is saying that every Colt, and only Colts, will run perfectly forever and that every xyz will fail. If that is your inference then you need to work on your reading comprehension.

[rob_s]

This thread is actually good, but it should have been combined with the chart that was made. That is my point. At the bottom of the chart, Rob_s should have put what he wrote on this thread. Then it would have all made sense.

I actually do post both together now when I post them elsewhere (as I did on lightfighter). I didn't know at the time I posted the chart that people would not understand the point of the chart and want to ditch the (possibly perfectly good) guns they already owned. This thread is a reaction to those people.

By the way. I am just playing the devil's advocate, if you guys can't figure it out. I can tell what is good shit from bad and I can also tell good advice from bad and when someone gives confusing or contradictory advice. This thread is like someone telling guys that ony BMW's and Mercedez-Benz are the only good cars because they have all of these features and that everything else sucks. Then later on telling us that Honda's, Toyota's, Fords, etc, are ok for regular use and they shouldn't feel bad for having a Honda Accord. Get my point?

What you, and others, keep missing is that nobody ever said this! This is your own inference when confronted with a collection of facts that you don't like. the contradiction only exists in your mind because you don't get it.

[Robb Jensen]

I just bought a LWRC piston carbine and am currently in the process of personalizing it/bringing it to snuff.

Ordered a couple of those D-fender rings for the extractor. It came with an O-ring around the extractor spring and had an H2 Buffer, but the receiver extension doesn't look mil-spec. So I'm replacing that.

The carrier key is put on umm... differently.
http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w...se/JesseBC.jpg

Should I still stake the screws?

Other upgrade ideas will be appreciated.
Thanks!

You can stake them (it's not needed) the key on that carrier fits into a sideways dovetail. I would just remove the screws and red loc-tite them torqued to 55in lbs and be done.

[paulosantos]

I actually do post both together now when I post them elsewhere (as I did on lightfighter). I didn't know at the time I posted the chart that people would not understand the point of the chart and want to ditch the (possibly perfectly good) guns they already owned. This thread is a reaction to those people.


What you, and others, keep missing is that nobody ever said this! This is your own inference when confronted with a collection of facts that you don't like. the contradiction only exists in your mind because you don't get it.

1. No dude. I do get it. You are the one that doesn't get it. You keep saying that I am emotionally attached to my AR and that is what is annoying. The only thing I am emotionally attached to is my wife and son. You know absolutely nothing about my personal AR or me, but you think you do. My AR is a mutt. I have put it together with what I think are the best parts I could find/afford. If you want, I can post exactly how my personal Ar is set up to see if it meets your approval.

2. An again, if someone goes to a class, they should take spare parts with him just in case something does break. Even if they have a Colt. They should also test out their AR prior to going to the class to make sure that it functions properly.

For me when I select an AR, I look for certain things that I consider must haves for me. M4 ramps, 16" midlength-chrome lined barrel with 1:7" twist. Everything else such as Mil-spec buffer tube, is nice, but not an absolute necessity.

[paulosantos]

I think that the problem here is that I just don't have the same way of thinking as some of the guys here. I think your chart is actually very good and informative. The problem is that some guys are made to think that because they don't have a tier 1 AR, that their AR is a piece of crap. I think that is wrong. I don't like telling someone that their AR is a piece of crap because it is a Tier 2 AR and they shouldn't take it to a class because they will hold up everyone else. Keep in mind that not everyone is blessed with money to spend on all the cool toys and most expensive ARs. I am blessed to have enough money that I can support my family and buy some of the best toys for my AR. I am also blessed to have a wife who understands and lets me go shooting once a week because she knows that the training may one day save my life at work.

I don't have a problem if someone takes their DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster, etc, to a training class as long as they have tested it out before and it functioned properly and they have spare parts for it just in case something breaks. It is a TRAINING CLASS. Nothing is shooting back at you. You are there to learn. If you have malfunctions in a training class, you learn to fix the malfunctions. I don't look at it as holding up the class. I actually learn from experiences like that. If something breaks at a class you try to fix it and move on. At work we train for the worst case scenerio and that is why I have this mentality.

Rob_S: I applaud you for the chart that you did. It is very informative. I also applaud you for this thread. I agree with both. And since you said you combined both, then that is awsome.

The problem that I have is that I took your chart as only tier 1 AR's are worth a crap and that tier 2 AR's suck. When I saw THIS thread, it contradicted your original chart and the mentality of this place and I was wondering what had changed.

[C4IGrant]

I think that the problem here is that I just don't have the same way of thinking as some of the guys here. I think your chart is actually very good and informative. The problem is that some guys are made to think that because they don't have a tier 1 AR, that their AR is a piece of crap. I think that is wrong. I don't like telling someone that their AR is a piece of crap because it is a Tier 2 AR and they shouldn't take it to a class because they will hold up everyone else. Keep in mind that not everyone is blessed with money to spend on all the cool toys and most expensive ARs. I am blessed to have enough money that I can support my family and buy some of the best toys for my AR. I am also blessed to have a wife who understands and lets me go shooting once a week because she knows that the training may one day save my life at work.

I don't have a problem if someone takes their DPMS, RRA, Bushmaster, etc, to a training class as long as they have tested it out before and it functioned properly and they have spare parts for it just in case something breaks. It is a TRAINING CLASS. Nothing is shooting back at you. You are there to learn. If you have malfunctions in a training class, you learn to fix the malfunctions. I don't look at it as holding up the class. I actually learn from experiences like that. If something breaks at a class you try to fix it and move on. At work we train for the worst case scenerio and that is why I have this mentality.

Rob_S: I applaud you for the chart that you did. It is very informative. I also applaud you for this thread. I agree with both. And since you said you combined both, then that is awsome.

The problem that I have is that I took your chart as only tier 1 AR's are worth a crap and that tier 2 AR's suck. When I saw THIS thread, it contradicted your original chart and the mentality of this place and I was wondering what had changed.

I would have to disagree with the statement that people are told that their weapon is crap. It is true that some brands are not very popular on here, but there is an honest reason for that.

I know that I tell people all the time that if they are just looking for a plinker, to just buy whatever they want as it really doesn't matter.

As far as training goes, you don't want to be "that guy." The definition of "that guy" is wide ranging. It basically boils down to the guy that slows down the entire class because he is occupying the instructors time with either his inability to follow instruction or his weapon won't function properly.

Both of the above two issues can be fixed by paying attention and not buying AR's that use only the cheapest parts and are improperly assembled.

For defense/training, buying a lessor quality AR really doesn't make much sense. So honestly, if you want a more dependable weapon, buy from the left side of the chart. It is that simple and what it really boils down to is how much is your life worth? Mine is worth a lot.

Can't afford a $1,300 Colt? Not a problem, buy a used one for a lot less coin.



C4

[paulosantos]

I would have to disagree with the statement that people are told that their weapon is crap. It is true that some brands are not very popular on here, but there is an honest reason for that.

I know that I tell people all the time that if they are just looking for a plinker, to just buy whatever they want as it really doesn't matter.

As far as training goes, you don't want to be "that guy." The definition of "that guy" is wide ranging. It basically boils down to the guy that slows down the entire class because he is occupying the instructors time with either his inability to follow instruction or his weapon won't function properly.

Both of the above two issues can be fixed by paying attention and not buying AR's that use only the cheapest parts and are improperly assembled.

For defense/training, buying a lessor quality AR really doesn't make much sense. So honestly, if you want a more dependable weapon, buy from the left side of the chart. It is that simple and what it really boils down to is how much is your life worth? Mine is worth a lot.

Can't afford a $1,300 Colt? Not a problem, buy a used one for a lot less coin.



C4

I guess we just have different ways of looking at things, especially when it comes to training. I would rather have someone with a Tier 2AR go to a class and learn how to use his AR properly then to have someone with a Tier 2 AR not go to a class because someone would make fun of him or get pissed because his AR malfunctioned. If he can't follow directions, that is one thing. If his AR malfunctions, you fix it and move on. Pull the guy off the range and fix the AR. That is whY I said that he should have tested his AR prior to going to the class and take spare parts. Basically you are saying that if a guy goes to a class with his Tier 1 and it malfunctions, it is OK because it is a Tier 1 and it rarely happens, but if a Tier 2 AR malfunctions in a class, then he is holding up the class and he shouldn't be there. Sorry, but I disagree. Shit happens, parts break. Who cares. Like I said before, I train for the worse case scenerio. I qualify 4 times a year at work with my carbine. We even have built-in transitions to the handgun in the qualification to train for the "o-shit" scenerio where the carbine malfunctioned or ran out of bullets.