"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"

[C4IGrant]

I guess we just have different ways of looking at things, especially when it comes to training. I would rather have someone with a Tier 2AR go to a class and learn how to use his AR properly then to have someone with a Tier 2 AR not go to a class because someone would make fun of him or get pissed because his AR malfunctioned. If he can't follow directions, that is one thing. If his AR malfunctions, you fix it and move on. Pull the guy off the range and fix the AR. That is whY I said that he should have tested his AR prior to going to the class and take spare parts. Basically you are saying that if a guy goes to a class with his Tier 1 and it malfunctions, it is OK because it is a Tier 1 and it rarely happens, but if a Tier 2 AR malfunctions in a class, then he is holding up the class and he shouldn't be there. Sorry, but I disagree. Shit happens, parts break. Who cares. Like I said before, I train for the worse case scenerio. I qualify 4 times a year at work with my carbine. We even have built-in transitions to the handgun in the qualification to train for the "o-shit" scenerio where the carbine malfunctioned or ran out of bullets.

Someone going to training is ALWAYS a good thing no matter what weapon they have. All AR's have malfunctions. What I am talking about is the guy that has many different issues through out the day (repeat offender). Yes training is a good place to find out what works and what doesn't, but I ask that people be considerate to the other shooters in the class (as they paid the same money as you did) and don't hold the class up with your crappy gun that won't run.

Following the 2 is 1 and 1 is none philosophy, people should always try and bring two weapons to a class. This allows you to keep up with the class if your weapon goes down. So it doesn't matter what "tier" the AR falls into. If the gun doesn't run, it doesn't run and you should grab your other AR or pull yourself off the line for an extended period.


C4

[Submariner]

"The Chart" is great for the economy. Manufacturer's, vendors and gun plumbers all benefit as buyers move to the left of The Chart in search of The Holy Grail of AR-15's. I note with interest an article by Pat Rogers in the most recent SWAT article, "Holy Grail of AR's" describing Sully's latest custom creation, the Grail. Publisher Rich Lubella is even on the cover with one of these carbines in Crye MultiCam (TM). "Our Publisher Can Kick Your Publisher's Butt" is the inscription.

Guys upgrade, selling their lower tier/farther-to-the-right-on-The-Chart gun. This creates a new potential buyer when he learns about The Chart. He upgrades, selling his lower tier/farther-to-the-right-on-The-Chart gun....

Brilliant marketing.

What we REALLY need, though, is cheap, reliable, MADE IN USA ammunition. Head Start has morphed to No Child Left Behind and we, the premier military power on the planet, can't make inexpensive, quality ammunition available to the populace.

[msr]

This chart along with the additional text will be quite useful if and when I do have a malfunction. I will use it as a check list to identify the problem. I appreciate the time put into it, thanks.

[paulosantos]

Someone going to training is ALWAYS a good thing no matter what weapon they have. All AR's have malfunctions. What I am talking about is the guy that has many different issues through out the day (repeat offender). Yes training is a good place to find out what works and what doesn't, but I ask that people be considerate to the other shooters in the class (as they paid the same money as you did) and don't hold the class up with your crappy gun that won't run.

Following the 2 is 1 and 1 is none philosophy, people should always try and bring two weapons to a class. This allows you to keep up with the class if your weapon goes down. So it doesn't matter what "tier" the AR falls into. If the gun doesn't run, it doesn't run and you should grab your other AR or pull yourself off the line for an extended period.


C4

I can't argue with you on what you wrote since I agree with it. My problem is with the whole mentality and teachings. If someone goes to a class with an an ARMS mount for his aimpoint and it breaks, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a Larue mount. I would say, "now you know why we use BUIS". If someone's bolt broke on his crappy AR, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a better bolt. I would have told him, "now what are you going to do?" Are you going to stand there and look at it or are you going to transition to your handgun and keep shooting.

[Submariner]

I can't argue with you on what you wrote since I agree with it. My problem is with the whole mentality and teachings. If someone goes to a class with an an ARMS mount for his aimpoint and it breaks, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a Larue mount. I would say, "now you know why we use BUIS". If someone's bolt broke on his crappy AR, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a better bolt. I would have told him, "now what are you going to do?" Are you going to stand there and look at it or are you going to transition to your handgun and keep shooting.

Actually, the instructor can (and probably should) do both: say, "What are you going to do now?" to solve the immediate problem and then, in the case of the broken mount, tell the shooter he can send the broken ARMS mount to mark LaRue and get a free LT replacement. The instructor might offer to lend/rent the shooter a back-up carbine so he can complete the training experience if the shooter failed to bring a spare bolt/bolt carrier group/carbine. Jes' my dos centavos.

[dubb-1]

Someone going to training is ALWAYS a good thing no matter what weapon they have. C4

Wrong. Someone that doesn't have the common sense to practice safe firearm handling techniques, or the decency and respect to invest in, at very least, a good BCG, and enough rounds to deem it "broken in", if not reliable, then he has no business on the firing line with me, or any of the people I train with. My Sheriff does not pay for my training, ammo, or lodging. Nor does he give me days off with pay.

If you want comraderie and research, play on the forums. If you want to train, invest like the rest of the professionals you'll be sharing time with. I want my instructors and their AIs to instruct, not put on their "armorer" hats. And that is what happens. When one man's rifle goes down, typically someone else has to stop what he's doing to help out. As such, when preparing for a class you do have a responsibility to the folks that you are sharing that time with.

[uranus]

Actually, I don't blame shooters for being upset when they realize that they purchased an inferior product.

I don't think that cost of the carbine is the primary issue because we see many shooters performing upgrades that can increase the cost substantially. Undoubtedly, the retail price of a new Colt is higher than average, but there are other excellent options, and an LMT upper and lower can be assembled for a lower price, or Grant, Paul, Steve or another shop can assemble a top-grade carbine at a very competitive price.

It appears, IMO, that the purchaser of a lesser quality carbine could be 1) concerned about the quality of their carbine; 2) pissed at their gunshop, friend, or gunrag who recommended the DPMS that they purchased; 3) pissed at the manufacturer for cutting corners on quality while spending big bucks on advertising merely to increase their bottom-line; and/or 4) disappointed that they do not own the best product that they could have owned at a comparable or reasonably-higher price because they were an under-educated consumer.

Seriously, how many pennies per carrier key could it cost to stake it properly? Notwithstanding, the selling price for a properly-staked carrier key isn't any higher than an inproperly-staked carrier key. Prior to joining this forum, I bought a CMT BCG with a carrier key that wasn't staked properly. Thank you Grant for correcting the problem.

However, this forum is an educational venue (with a good dose of humor thrown in), and I don't think that the posters/sponsors should be concerned about appearing as snobs or be concerned if forum members become aware that they could have made a better purchase. Unless the retail customer demands quality, there is little chance that retail manufacturers will improve their products. Additionally, anyone that seriously uses this forum wants the best information and the best product available, considering their budget, etc.

Great post, Rob!

[C4IGrant]

I can't argue with you on what you wrote since I agree with it. My problem is with the whole mentality and teachings. If someone goes to a class with an an ARMS mount for his aimpoint and it breaks, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a Larue mount. I would say, "now you know why we use BUIS". If someone's bolt broke on his crappy AR, I wouldn't go up to him and tell him he should have bought a better bolt. I would have told him, "now what are you going to do?" Are you going to stand there and look at it or are you going to transition to your handgun and keep shooting.

The job of gear correction falls unto the instructor (if they know anything) and not to any of the other students. If a piece of kit does go down, I do expect the instructor to examine it and maybe suggest a better alternative (whether it is a better weapon or better Aimpoint mount).

Both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers do a good job of discussing what they like and don't like based on their experience and what they see go down in classes. This is very good info that the students should be open too (even if they find out that what they own is junk).


C4

[C4IGrant]

Wrong. Someone that doesn't have the common sense to practice safe firearm handling techniques, or the decency and respect to invest in, at very least, a good BCG, and enough rounds to deem it "broken in", if not reliable, then he has no business on the firing line with me, or any of the people I train with. My Sheriff does not pay for my training, ammo, or lodging. Nor does he give me days off with pay.

If you want comraderie and research, play on the forums. If you want to train, invest like the rest of the professionals you'll be sharing time with. I want my instructors and their AIs to instruct, not put on their "armorer" hats. And that is what happens. When one man's rifle goes down, typically someone else has to stop what he's doing to help out. As such, when preparing for a class you do have a responsibility to the folks that you are sharing that time with.

I fully understand and have been on the line with people that don't belong there. While I don't like them sucking up my training time, I still want to them to learn what they don't know. I just wish they would have picked a lower speed course for them to learn what they don't know.

That someone that usually helps the guy with the broken weapon is me.


C4

[paulosantos]

The job of gear correction falls unto the instructor (if they know anything) and not to any of the other students. If a piece of kit does go down, I do expect the instructor to examine it and maybe suggest a better alternative (whether it is a better weapon or better Aimpoint mount).

Both Pat Rogers and Larry Vickers do a good job of discussing what they like and don't like based on their experience and what they see go down in classes. This is very good info that the students should be open too (even if they find out that what they own is junk).


C4

Grant, in a perfect world, you are correct, but not everyone lives there. I actually had a long detailed response, but it is pointless at this point because you are stuck in your ways and that is fine with me. I don't disagree with you, I am just a little more understanding and open minded. Your job is to build as perfect an AR as you can and you do a good job at it, but that means shit to me if I am issued a piece of junk and have no choice but to use it. My personal AR is 1,000,000 times better than my issued one. That is the real world.

Now back to the regularly scheduled chat.