"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"

[mmike87]

And it does suck to hear that you spent nearly a thousand dollars on something recognized by people in the know as being junk.....

But at least most of the items can be upgraded or fixed. Not the same, but at least enough to keep you from having to trash the rifle.

[Charlie Hotel]

Hello from Va. Just wanted to introduce myself and comment and thank the author for this thread.

Just after Christmas this year I purchased a DPMS AP4. Let me explain......

I have had handguns for years and hunted in Va with shottys and some bolt guns. I have always wanted an M4 and decided to buy before our new soon to be Democratic government enacts HR 1022.
When looking for a new product, most people will generally search the net, buy publications or ask via word of mouth. The problem with searching the net is that MOST people will simply Google a well known brand and you end up at some manufacturers web site (Pioneer, Honda, Bushmaster for example) and not at a FORUM like this one where you can learn about properly staked gas keys/castle nuts/feed ramps/blue vs. black extractors etc... It never occured to me to go to a M4 forum to get info before I purchased. And the magazines we all like to read such as "Special Weapons", "Tactical Weapons", "Guns & Weapons" and "SWAT" have reviewed DPMS guns hand over fist and of course not a bad review in any of the articles (sponsorshop maybe? dunno).

So there it was, decision made. All the rags were fine with them and the police Dpt. down the street had a few. One of the local gun shops just 10 minutes from where I live just happened to stock shiny new DPMS guns (albeit literally dripping with gun oil) along with several $200 Chinese SKS's, lucky me.

Well, I lurked on this site for a while and it became readily apparent the members here are obviously biased, well educated, highly opinionated and fond of bashing. Just bashing away at brands where the only seemingly fault with the gun was......staking. I tried to search but couldnt find any proof of major malfunctions with any one particular brand vs. another.......just conjecture and opinion backed by nothing but pictures of improperly staked gas keys. I get it. So, I came to the conclusion to replace my BCG with one from the fine folks at Bravo Company and use my DPMS as a spare. It appeared that 90% of the possible problems with the lower tiered guns lie in the inferior BCG anyway? I believe this is what Rob is sorta eluding to........with a few tweaks and parts R&R I may have a gun that is worth keeping.

So now i'm stuck with a DPMS gun with a properly staked castle nut, a Bravo Co. BCG and lubed with TW-25B thanks to the advice on this forum.......And perfectly happy with this rifle with no intentions to get rid of it. Maybe when funds permit I will go north to that fellas' store in Manassas to look over some LMT ot Colt's. But since I just purchased my used Springfield SAR8 a few weeks ago (complete with a set of black furniture parts, spent shell casing marks ) a new M4 will have to wait.

Regardless, I found Black Rifle Disease has a cure and it's called married with Children.

Thanks again. C.H.

[UVvis]

CH,

I fully see what you are getting at. I wouldn't call it bashing as much as I would call it disappoint and annoyance. It is easy to be disappointed by getting a troublesome gun, and even more so if you find that it isn't higher up on the totem pole of quality. If this happens to you, then you might run into some serious annoyance, because you thought all these guns were the same.

It isn't so much that it is bashing, it is more that many folk here do not see the value, or point, based on experience, on buying a lesser quality gun. There is great value in buying a gun that you know comes with high quality tested parts, that you know is very likely to run out of the box, and run and run.

You mentioned staking as an issue. I agree to a point that it is one little thing, and it can be easily fixed. From there you have probably seen the, "If they aren't doing that right, what else aren't they doing correctly" deal. Yeah, this can seem a bit judgmental and shortsighted. But there are some people here who every day go to work knowing that things can get ugly, and they might not be coming home. For those people, they aren't asking a rhetorical question, they are asking a heavy, real world, life and death question. A single malfunction could cost someone their life.

So yeah, there is some bias towards high quality gear, and for a very good reason.

So, it isn't so much that Brand X or Y guns are all garbage. Some might be on par and run as hard as or better the guns from better parts, though this isn't likely. It is when these companies do well and sell guns based on ignorance of their customers that many have a hard time with. Especially when these customers are SWAT teams or police departments that get a pile of guns that don't work that well. I guess I would have a time personally selling a sub par product to someone who needs a top quality gun. So for some, it just isn't worth the chance or the time to deal with sub par guns.

[Charlie Hotel]

Thanks for the reply UVvis............

Exactly what you said was basically what i was getting at. For a new M4 buyer, your gonna get hosed trying to research the guns because unless you know someone "in the know", youre going to get directed to the usual big name stuff. If I sold the gun, I didnt want to sell it to someone I know if additional problems were going to come up with the gun, but so far it runs fine, shoots about 3" at 200yards (I think thats my problem and using 77grain stuff in a 1/9 barrell). Thanks again.

p.s. I was looking at a 6.8 upper from Ko-tonics? Stay away or OK?

[toddackerman]

Thanks for the reply UVvis............

Exactly what you said was basically what i was getting at. For a new M4 buyer, your gonna get hosed trying to research the guns because unless you know someone "in the know", youre going to get directed to the usual big name stuff. If I sold the gun, I didnt want to sell it to someone I know if additional problems were going to come up with the gun, but so far it runs fine, shoots about 3" at 200yards (I think thats my problem and using 77grain stuff in a 1/9 barrell). Thanks again.

p.s. I was looking at a 6.8 upper from Ko-tonics? Stay away or OK?

Charlie,

IMHO....3" groups at 200 isn't bad, especially if the optic is less than 9X. That's 1.5 MOA. As I've always said, you have to be able to SEE 1MOA on the target to put the rounds in 1 MOA group. I have a lot of Benchrest history, and this has been my experience.

To shoot .5 MOA groups, guys would typically use optics with 32X power, and these were on "Highly Modified" Bench Rest, Single Shot Bolt Guns. An AR platform is much less stable.

Good luck on your 6.8 upper. Personally I'd take a look at LMT. I've never heard of Ko-Tonics. Just my $.02 worth.

Tack

[AR15barrels]

To shoot .5 MOA groups, guys would typically use optics with 32X power, and these were on "Highly Modified" Bench Rest, Single Shot Bolt Guns. An AR platform is much less stable.

I shoot 1/2 MOA groups with my lightly modified (bolt knob and trigger) remington 700 (stock barrel) and a 10x scope.

Perhaps you need more help.

I have also shot some 3/8" groups at 100m with AR's using about 12x magnification.

[paulosantos]

p.s. I was looking at a 6.8 upper from Ko-tonics? Stay away or OK?

Ko-Tonics is currently one of the best barrels/uppers for the 6.8SPC. I don't know if they would be considered in the Tier1 list , but they are definitely in the Tier 2 list. I can easily get close to 1/2 MOA with some of my best handloads. Stop at www.68forums.com and you can see some recipes and accuracy results.

[toddackerman]

I shoot 1/2 MOA groups with my lightly modified (bolt knob and trigger) remington 700 (stock barrel) and a 10x scope.

Perhaps you need more help.

I have also shot some 3/8" groups at 100m with AR's using about 12x magnification.

I always need More Help!!!

I think you're 3/8th" group is outstanding with an AR and 12X. I just can't see that closely anymore without at least 16X.

My personal best is .337" (holes measured center to center) with a Remington VS, Timney trigger and a 14X scope. This was in 1998, and I still have the target. The 32X scopes I was referring to were being used by guys who could "Regularly shoot" 5 shots under .2 MOA with Custom BR Guns, usually in 6 PPC caliber. And yes that means 5 shots in ~2/10ths of an inch at 100 yds. The world record is under .1 MOA.

Tack

[scottp999]

Great work!

[m700m]

i prefer Colt, "6920" yet ''ms'' Santa left a Bushmaster CAR copy under the tree this year, and after looking it over during the initial cleaning for a trip to the range, i was mildly surprised to see matching receivers, chrome throughout, and a properly staked carrier key . so, could be they are listening, and should know by now that AR buyers are tiering of shoddy work.(or just an ''anomaly'')? D..........