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Thread: MKE (AT94K/AT94P) Turkish HK Contracts...

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    MKE (AT94K/AT94P) Turkish HK Contracts...

    Ok, first I was unsure of which forum to post this in. They are both pistols (however MKE also makes a carbine) but I am discussing them in the context of converting them to legal carbines via 922r compliance or NFA SBRs or legal machine gun conversions. So if this actually gets moved to another forum (Handgun or NFA) it will also be linked from here.

    Second, I hope you guys appreciate the things I do for your benefit. I purchased two firearms just to make this post. Sure I needed them for the White Tile Small Arms Museum, but I'm using this post as justification so leave me to my delusions.

    As far as fit, finish and performance these aren't quite Oberndorf quality, they are more like POF (Pakistani HK contract). But that means they are still light years ahead of the best US clone on the market, not to mention $1000 cheaper in most cases. I've yet to get one to hiccup using WWB USA 9mm but I haven't done any serious testing and evaluation either. The most shooting I've so far seen is about 1000 rounds through another MKE with zero failures. In contrast I've yet to see a clone that would go 500 rounds without a failure of some kind.

    The fit and finish isn't bad, it just isn't quite German quality.

    Ok, lets' start with the carbine version (AT 94 A2) .



    Long story short, you don't want it. It has a modified magazine well to accept a proprietary 10 round only magazine. Sure you could easily modify it by going the 922r route but given that it actually costs more than the pistol versions (MSRP $1,549.00) there is no point. So we will dispense with the discussion of this model and that is why I didn't buy one.

    On to the two pistol variants, the AT94P (HK 94 style) and the AT94K (HK SP89 style). Here is what they look like right out of the box.



    Not terribly impressive looking, basically big heavy pistol version of HK SMGs missing hand guards. Along the same lines, when imported nobody was impressed with the SP89 as a pistol either. But we aren't buying them as a pistol, we are buying them for what they "can" be.

    Basically you have two pistol options, The AT94K and the AT94P and the both have a MSRP in the $1,495.00 range depending where you buy them.

    So let's look at how they break down. Here is the AT94K (the AT94P trigger group mates to the receiver with the same setup).





    Below is the AT94P.



    For those who are wondering, yes a MP5K VFG hand guard and PDW side folding stock (as well as B&T stocks for the same model) fit without any modifications whatsoever. Obviously with the short barrel, this would require registration as a AOW to add a K grip or as a SBR to add a folding stock with or without the K grip.

    Those familiar with HK guns, especially the 90 series will notice a few differences. The trigger group shelf on the receiver is unique (as well as the modification to the trigger group to fit the receiver). So that means all of your 90 series packs will NOT fit these firearms. You could however specifically modify full auto packs in semi configuration to fit. Other than the unique notch in the trigger box, the semi auto setup is more or less identical to the 90 series.

    Of extreme interest is the fact that apparently ATF permitted MKE to weld up select fire receivers to produce semi auto firearms. The modification of the push pin hole is rather obvious. Unlike those PSL rifles which were determined to be machine guns by ATF after importation, these receivers were modified PRIOR to becoming a completed firearm so there is no danger of a recall. Just interesting that it was allowed given some of ATFs rulings.

    Also unlike the 90 series, these pistols have paddle magazine releases already installed. So that saves everyone a little gunsmithing right there.

    Now here is where things get really different from the 90 series and why everyone on HKPro is so unhappy.



    Inside the receiver (to the bottom right) is a small piece of metal welded in place which prevents the use of a 90 series or full auto bolt carrier. Now technically a registered sear pack (the registered sear would have to be installed in a trigger group that would mate with the MKE receiver) should render the entire thing a legal machine gun and that receiver block should be legal to remove (much in the same way FNC receivers can be modified to accept legal sears).

    What you cannot do, not even with a legal sear is modify the receiver to accept a swing down pack as that would render the entire thing a post sample machine gun according to ATF. This is because by drilling that hole, you have made a "new" machine gun that wasn't registered prior to the 86 ban.

    And with that receiver block in mind, you can see how the bolt carrier has been modified to mate with the MKE semi series. The receiver to bolt carrier modification is identical on both pistols, except each one uses a different length carrier and recoil spring just like the original HK firearms.







    If building 922r semi autos none of this will matter, but a modification to the receiver would be necessary to install a registered sear pack and you would have to have the registered sear installed in the unique trigger group to mate with the receiver.

    As I have yet to register the AT94k I cannot show you what the completed project will look like. But with enough US parts to be 922r compliant the AT94P looks like this.



    Eventually this one will be SBR'd as well. So if you are in the market for a MP5 or MP5k semi and don't have $5k, this is probably your best option. Even with any related gunsmithing and NFA registration, they are still cheaper than most unmodified US clones and far more reliable.
    Last edited by SteyrAUG; 02-21-11 at 22:43.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

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  2. #2
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    Hey There,

    First off, thanks for the post. Your timing is impectable. I was just at West Coast Armory (from whom you bought your 551 if memory serves) and they had a rifle version of this.

    Looking to build a 9mm carbine for the wife (who is noise sensitive). My plan is to chop the barrel to 10 or 12 inches, and permanently attach a sleeve into which I'll thread a 9mm can. Cans are cool (ish) in WA state but SBRs are not.

    So I have some questions for you:

    1) so the HK94P will take MP5 mags?
    2) Assuming it will take MP5 optic mounts?
    3) Is the barrel an extension or is it rifled the whole length?

    Would you go this route over a 9mm AR?

    Thanks Much!

    Damien
    Damien


    I really want to help you and I will listen to your questions, but my answer will be "get a 6920, a Glock 19, an Arsenal AK, and a Spyderco Delica. Then plant an Aimpoint tree and hope it grows".

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    Nice post, lots of good info on the MKE. I have been researching mp5 stuff for a future semi-auto sbr. My question is how much will it cost to make the pistol version 922r compliant? I would like to here some thoughts on the most economical route to a reliable mp5 style sbr. My concern is that the cost of the US made parts plus the initial MKE cost would end up close to a custom build cost.

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    Thanks for the writeup, been eyeing these for a while now, keep us posted, especially regarding the reliability of these guns, since thats whats gonna make or break my decision to purchase one.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KTR03 View Post
    Hey There,

    First off, thanks for the post. Your timing is impectable. I was just at West Coast Armory (from whom you bought your 551 if memory serves) and they had a rifle version of this.

    Looking to build a 9mm carbine for the wife (who is noise sensitive). My plan is to chop the barrel to 10 or 12 inches, and permanently attach a sleeve into which I'll thread a 9mm can. Cans are cool (ish) in WA state but SBRs are not.

    So I have some questions for you:

    1) so the HK94P will take MP5 mags?
    2) Assuming it will take MP5 optic mounts?
    3) Is the barrel an extension or is it rifled the whole length?

    Would you go this route over a 9mm AR?

    Thanks Much!

    Damien
    1. Both pistol versions take standard MP5 mags.
    2. Both pistol versions have the same receiver profile so any MP5 optics mount will work.
    3. 16" full rifled barrel.

    As far as MKE vs. 6450 I'd defer to the MKE simply because I find the roller lock bolt to be a smoother action and I like the MP5 magazine more than the Colt 9mm magazine. But you can't go wrong with either and price is about the same.

    I'd reconsider the permanently mounted suppressor thing, they need maintenance from time to time, not to mention cleaning barrels with the can ON is a major PITA. I'd just go with a carbine conversion of the 94P and call it good.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lloydkristmas View Post
    Thanks for the writeup, been eyeing these for a while now, keep us posted, especially regarding the reliability of these guns, since thats whats gonna make or break my decision to purchase one.

    Keep in mind MKE is a HK contract factory, so basically it is a semi auto modification of a military HK contract firearm. I just didn't want anyone to think they are "exactly like German HKs" because they are not. Again the fit and finish is very reminiscent of POF guns.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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    I got a bit lost - let me see if I understand correctly:

    Carbine - good but not great.
    Pistol- nice semi K clone.

    You prefer the pistol?

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    I shot an AT94K yesterday that had been converted on a Form 1 to a PDW configuration. It ran like a scalded dog through several hundred rounds of el cheapo 115gr ball ammo (probably mostly WWB). It's on my short list of projects.

    Stephen

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    1. Both pistol versions take standard MP5 mags.
    2. Both pistol versions have the same receiver profile so any MP5 optics mount will work.
    3. 16" full rifled barrel.

    As far as MKE vs. 6450 I'd defer to the MKE simply because I find the roller lock bolt to be a smoother action and I like the MP5 magazine more than the Colt 9mm magazine. But you can't go wrong with either and price is about the same.

    I'd reconsider the permanently mounted suppressor thing, they need maintenance from time to time, not to mention cleaning barrels with the can ON is a major PITA. I'd just go with a carbine conversion of the 94P and call it good.
    Yeah, not going to attach the can. Going to attach a sleeve to the barrel into which the can will thread. So you figure a 1.375 inch can that is 7 inches long, threading into a 1.4 inch diameter pipe that is roughly 7 inches long, permanently attached to a 10 inch barrel. The can comes in and out, without affecting the OAL of the barrel.
    Damien


    I really want to help you and I will listen to your questions, but my answer will be "get a 6920, a Glock 19, an Arsenal AK, and a Spyderco Delica. Then plant an Aimpoint tree and hope it grows".

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    Quote Originally Posted by 96 SS View Post
    I got a bit lost - let me see if I understand correctly:

    Carbine - good but not great.
    Pistol- nice semi K clone.

    You prefer the pistol?
    I got lost as well.
    Steyr, your saying if want a carbine to go with the AT94P, but add an HK MP5 A2 rear stock; and avoid the AT 94 A2 carbine due to the non standard magazine, etc..? Sorry for the confusion. I blame it on my flu.
    Matthew 10:28

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    Quote Originally Posted by 96 SS View Post
    I got a bit lost - let me see if I understand correctly:

    Carbine - good but not great.
    Pistol- nice semi K clone.

    You prefer the pistol?
    We are talking about THREE versions.

    Carbine "as imported" = neutered crap (modified magazine well for 10 round ONLY magazine).

    There are TWO versions of the pistol, both make nice SBRs or in the case of the 94P a fine 922r carbine.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KTR03 View Post
    Yeah, not going to attach the can. Going to attach a sleeve to the barrel into which the can will thread. So you figure a 1.375 inch can that is 7 inches long, threading into a 1.4 inch diameter pipe that is roughly 7 inches long, permanently attached to a 10 inch barrel. The can comes in and out, without affecting the OAL of the barrel.

    Wouldn't you end up with an unregistered SBR (10" barrel) every time you removed the can to clean things?
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

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    Quote Originally Posted by sadmin View Post
    I got lost as well.
    Steyr, your saying if want a carbine to go with the AT94P, but add an HK MP5 A2 rear stock; and avoid the AT 94 A2 carbine due to the non standard magazine, etc..? Sorry for the confusion. I blame it on my flu.

    CORRECT. The 94P has a standard magazine well that accepts high capacity magazines. The AT 94 A2 does NOT. So you could do it two ways.

    1. Start with the AT 94 A2 Carbine and make a compliant domestic semi (922r) which will allow you to modify the magazine well for high caps.

    2. Start with the AT 94P pistol and make a compliant domestic semi (922r) carbine and there is no need to modify the magazine well.

    In both cases you will end up with an identical 16" barrel 922r carbine. Starting with the pistol is easier and cheaper. The last picture in the OP is one of the pistol versions (AT94P) as a semi auto carbine.
    Last edited by SteyrAUG; 02-22-11 at 13:38.
    It's hard to be a ACLU hating, philosophically Libertarian, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, scientifically grounded, agnostic, porn admiring gun owner who believes in self determination.

    Chuck, we miss ya man.

    كافر

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    I wish they made a full size pistol version with a 3 lug barrel.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

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    Quote Originally Posted by scottryan View Post
    I wish they made a full size pistol version with a 3 lug barrel.
    YES..
    That's the only reason keeping me from wanting to pick one up.

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    I've been eying this thing for some time now, but the price and the lack of a full size pistol has had me looking elsewhere. I managed to find a 94 clone for sale on gunbroker for a decent price and when it gets here I'll test it out. Although I am not suggesting that it will be better than the MKE.

    It is really nice that you are doing this review because there seems to be a niche market for these clones. I also like this community and it's good to hear different opinions compared to other sites that specialize in HK.

    That said, I really want a UMP to go with the 94 now...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas M-4 View Post
    YES..
    That's the only reason keeping me from wanting to pick one up.

    Agreed.

    As it sits now, the full size MP5 is too much work to get a proper gun.

    If it came with a 3 lug factory barrel I would buy one or more.
    "Not every thing on Earth requires an aftermarket upgrade." demigod/markm

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    Can't figure out how someone who bashes SIG about their quality can stand to OWN a Turkish copy of the MP5. With all the garbage you guys spew about QUALITY and TIER1 manufacturers, isn't this a bit hypocritical? Why don't you just get a real MP5?

    You guys know they aren't being imported any longer, only 1 batch made it into the USA before being cut off. What about spares? HK parts will not work in them.

    You guys do know that the rifle versions cannot take high cap mags? Did you also know the lower is welded to the stock? You have to do a lot more work on these than they are even worth. Get a real HK.
    Last edited by Phazuka; 02-22-11 at 17:02.
    Low Speed, High Drag Phone Operator

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    Quote Originally Posted by SteyrAUG View Post
    Wouldn't you end up with an unregistered SBR (10" barrel) every time you removed the can to clean things?
    Hey Man,

    Don't want to hijack your thread, so we can continue this on PM if you'd like...but its "what all the cool kids" in WA state are doing. Basically the permanently attached Sleeve looks like a longer version of a Noveske pig. As long as it is permanently attached its part of the barrel it counts towards overall length. That way when you go out of state to use the can you can put it in and shoot quietly. When you are at the range in WA, you shoot it loud without the can. Although, our laws look like they are about to change, in which case cans will be good to go bu the summer.

    D

    As to the other constructive response about why don't you get a real MP5, its because I dont want to spend 4 grand on one, and frankly if styer aug says these are good to go, that is good enough for me.
    Damien


    I really want to help you and I will listen to your questions, but my answer will be "get a 6920, a Glock 19, an Arsenal AK, and a Spyderco Delica. Then plant an Aimpoint tree and hope it grows".

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    Made on HK tooling? Takes collapsible stocks? Paddle mag release? Roller locked?

    I'm interested.

    It's not like I'm going to make it FA anytime soon.
    Principles matter.

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