"titanium" plate fraud

[Heavy Metal]

Is titanium really that weak of a material? Not being any kind of metallurgist I have always been under the impression that it is an incredibly strong material.

Titanium is lighter than Steel and stronger than Aluminum.

It is not, however, lighter than Aluminum and stronger than Steel.

[kartoffel]

So what you are saying is it is a weight to strength ratio kind of thing with a high temperature tolerance. So then why are drill bits coated in Ti if steel is still stronger? Is it because of the heat generated by drilling?

More bullshit marketing. Drill bits are coated with titanium nitride.

[mongopd]

Wow. Just when I thought this thread had exhausted it's possibilities. Some of what has been discussed about titanium I learned after this whole ordeal about the plates. I've also learned alot about the ballistic threat levels because of this. In answer to why I shot the plates before returning them, Doc had it closest. When I shot them, I was angry and wanted to make the point. The point I wanted to make was that the plates were not what they were advertised to be or would not do what they were advertised to do. Also, at the time it didn't sound like I was going to get a refund. So I shot them to make my point. When I told both the vendor and manufacturer I shot them, and what the results were, the refund/return deal got worked out.

I didn't buy them to put on display or wear for a paitball game on the weekend. I bought them because I intend to strap them over my internal organs in case I have to face some nut with a long gun. Having said that, I should have dome my homework better and been less trusting. Slick advertising or fraud, call it what you will.

[DocGKR]

"Slick advertising or fraud?

BOTH!!!

The plates were not constructed as advertised and did not stop the threats the vendor claimed they would.

[Redmanfms]

Sadly this kind of thing appears to be pretty common in the armor industry.

[decodeddiesel]

I would certainly not call this fraud. Slick marketing perhaps.

Does it stop the threat level or not? Meet size weight specs?

A company can call them ninja plates if they wish...

Clearly buyer unfamiliar with industry materials and practices. .25" titanium wouldn't stop any rifle threat and wouldn't weigh much.

Excuse my language, but but you are abso-****ing-lutely correct. Titanium it's self is not some magic element that will stop any and everything. Plain old 4340 steel of comparable thickness has far better ballistic defeating properties than titanium. Further, you are absolutely correct about everything else. I mean, hell I have seen all sorts of products with the word "titanium" in the name. Hell, it sounds cool and that's what marketing and advertising is all about.

Not only have I witnessed first hand the ability of an E-SAPI plate to defeat a non-AP rifle round (Iraq 2006), but I now work for a company that does (among many other things) 3rd party certification of ballistic plates and armor coupons as per DOJ standards. We also do some PPE development and product improvement design.

It is important to understand what the different threat defeat levels actually mean, and to purchase these things from reputable vendors and manufacturers. I have seen and tested plates that carried manufacturing flaws that would have caused them to fail and not be effective at the advertised threat level. It is one of those things where QA/QC is CRITICAL and you have a far less chance of getting a "dud" if you go with a reputable brand name company.

YMMV and all that.

[Jake'sDad]

Sadly this kind of thing appears to be pretty common in the armor industry.

Actually, it's probably better today than 10-20 years ago. There certainly seems to be a bit more knowledge out there now then when I was issued my first vest.

It had a label on it that said it was rated for ".38 Special, 9mm, .357 Magnum, .45 Auto, and .44 Magnum".

No velocities, no bullet types, no testing certifications, etc. I asked our equipment guy which ones it would stop. He didn't have a clue.

[DocGKR]

Hint--Just because a vendor has a lot of advertising or significant brand recognition does NOT mean that it is a "reputable brand name company". Look for open, honest, thorough test results, along with ethical behavior and a true concern for end users--not just lip service...

[rsilvers]

Marketing your vests as bronze, silver, gold, or platinum is fine. Titanium is actually a metal used in some high end armor. It is misleading to use that name for armor that does not contain it. It would be like selling a gem as diamond then say you did not mean it was actually diamond but just a marketing term.

[Jake'sDad]

Hint--Just because a vendor has a lot of advertising or significant brand recognition does NOT mean that it is a "reputable brand name company". Look for open, honest, thorough test results, along with ethical behavior and a true concern for end users--not just lip service...

Good point.

It wasn't too many years ago when one of the largest vest companies was marketing a vest, that had extra layers of material, right where HP White shot it during testing. The rest of the vest feathered down to less layers, for "comfort". They brought it out to our department, and we said thanks, but no thanks. Lots of other departments bought it though.