Semi-Auto Rifle "Precision" definition...what's yours?

[Jim243]

I believe it really depends on one's style of shooting. When it came time to purchase an AR my choices were a M4 or a Varminter. While the M4 style is neat and cool, it came down to the fact that I am basicly a sniper at heart and the 24 inch fluted HBAR, national match chamber, two stage match trigger and guaranty 1/2 MOA on the rifle was the deturming factors. So I think you are correct it is a mind set more than an equipment race. While not dressed fancy this does get the job done at less than 1/2 MOA.

Jim

[aklaunch]

To much wine.

[ZRH]

This is OT for this thread, but I'll respond to it once. Just find another thread about how to shoot and bump it or start your own if you have more questions.

Today i was at the 200/300 yard range with a long time friend and long time shooter who shoots not very often at all and is not familiar with the AR platform. I let him take a spin on my rifle. At first i observed him aiming at the target with his rifle arm resting on the the bench (letting the bipod take the load)

The bipod is made for taking the load, the earth is usually more stable than your body. You shouldn't use a bipod on a bench though. They work best on the ground

I immediately thought to my self.... This is not good technique and his shots will be all over the target. I was wrong. This guy shot a five shot group tighter than i had ever done myself. And i have been shooting my ass off this year.

So i decided to give it a try!!! I actually let my hand rest on the left side of the bipod and shot a tight as hell sub MOA group myself. This is nothing new for me as i have been shooting a lot. It is just that i am far, FAR from consistent doing this. I did it again. And again another consistent tight group.

Pressing against something that is stable makes everything stable.

That being said i guess my hand up on the hand guard turns my sub MOA gun into a 2-4 MOA gun sometimes? (because of me)

Obviously off hand carbine shooting requires a solid hand on the guard for fast follow up shots. But consistent sub MOA groups????

There are hundreds of ways to shoot offhand. One of the easier ones is to learn to use a hasty sling. There is also wingshooting, slouch support, etc. You should at least read FM 3-22.9. You should also dryfire as much as possible. I still practice with a .22 bolt action to stay sharp since it's cheap to shoot 1k rounds through it.

How do the fellas and enthusiast here of this difficult sport acquire the ability to consistently tack drive? Also.... This chrome lined vs. SS barrel thing? It seems that if the gun was locked down and fired with good ammunition that it would theoretically fire the bullet close to the same hole over and over again?

Thanks for your help! We have a 600 yard range at my club that i intend on visiting very soon. i am addicted......

It's the magician, not the wand.

[ColtJ]

In my humble opinion, "precision" should be defined by how well a marksman and his rifle can consistently place accurate shots on target within the rifles intended effective range.

Not just having a rifle with the ideal setup or parts as its useless without a good marksman.

IE: giving a novice driver a drag car and asking him to run great laps at Sebring. Last secenario is just all wrong.

I dont think there should be regulations on equipment as this is not a regulated sport but should be judged by how well the entire package works.

Shooting dot drills and tight groups show how well the marksman and his rifle work together.

It would be nice to have a few printable targets that this subforum can use at different distances to compare their setups, technique, etc... With one another. Although thats basically already done in one way or another.

[ALCOAR]

Great Idea ColtJ....I'll see about getting us a nice Dot drill PDF printable target. That's an excellent tool for a precision AR imho. Thanks for continuing to contribute to the thread gents

[ALCOAR]

Here is a nice dot drill download....I will give a go myself next time out to the range

http://www.impactdatabooks.com/v/vsp...lls/D-21DD.pdf

Here is a Know your limitations one as well....
http://www.impactdatabooks.com/v/vsp...lls/D-KYLC.pdf

[ColtJ]

I've actually used that 21 dot drill before but it was a little hard to see so I photoshoped the rings into all black dots.

I can upload a copy for download if anyone wants it.

[warriorsociologist]

I have two rifles I consider "precision" rigs. Both (+me behind them) are sub 0.5 MOA. For the most part though, my min. accuracy criterion is that a "precision rig" must reliably shoot 0.5 MOA or better (although, I had a FN SPR-A1 a number of years ago that was a ~0.6 MOA shooter and I still considered it in the same category). Most of my "utility rifles" are between 0.5-1.0 MOA. I generally sell off rifles that I can't get to shoot at least 1.0 MOA after a trying them with a number of different handloads.

[Cameron]

I suppose semantically "precision" might mean something slightly different to different people, but it when we apply it to the AR15 there are some obvious commonalities.

I have found that most quality AR15 rifles today are actually a lot more accurate than most shooters. That said, with a basic application of the fundamentals most shooters can easily begin to maximize the accuracy potential of their particular setups. I don't consider myself to be an expert, but I have received good instruction in the basics and discipline myself to correctly apply the fundamentals when I shoot. When I do my job I have found that most quality ARs will yield very good results.

I recently went through the process of re-zeroing all my ARs on one day confirming that all BUIS, red dots and scopes for each of the 5 ARs had a 100M zero with my typical ammunition. The results on the 100M range proved that basically I was the biggest factor in the accuracy equation for the ARs. I found that at 100M ARs with chrome lined mil spec barrels and triggers, or stainless steel match barrels with match trigger from 10.5" to 18" with irons, red dots, or magnified optics in reality they are all capable of MOA or better.

What components help to improve that accuracy potential of a given cartridge?

Barrel and bolt. The only two components that actually touch the round will have an effect on mechanical accuracy. A well made match barrel with a correctly fitted bolt will have a positive impact on accuracy.
Trigger. A trigger that minimizes the effect of the shooter moving the rifle as the trigger is pulled.

With these components and correct application of shooter fundamentals one should be able to maximize the accuracy of a particular ammunition.

I personally look at "practical accuracy" can I make hits on the targets I need to hit in the time frame required? Will I accept less accuracy for more speed? Weight is a consideration, length is a factor. Can I use this particular setup to get the hits I need at the ranges I am likely to encounter. That takes just the "accuracy" or "precision" components and asks if it is effective.

I have found that at 100yds I can shoot a 16" match barreled carbine with a 5 power scope just as accurately as I can shoot an 18" match barreled rifle with a 14 power scope, when I am consistent in the application of the fundamentals then both rifles with quality match ammunition will shoot sub MOA even sub half minute when the external ballistic effects are minimized. I am able to hold both rifles still enough that we are seeing the accuracy potential of the ammunition in most cases.

If you want me to quickly place precise rounds from 10-300yds I would take the 16" with the 1-5 power optic, but if you want me to quickly place precise rounds on very small targets from 100-800 yards then the 18" with the 4.5-14 power optic would be a better fit, due to slightly flatter trajectory and better sight picture on the targets.

So precision for me is:
Does the rifle contain quality components that mechanically maximize that accuracy potential of the ammunition used?
Does the setup allow me to easily apply shooting fundamentals? Think stock and optic fit and trigger.
Or does it really make me work hard to get the sights on target and keep them there when the shot breaks?


My precision ARs

Daniel Defense Recce
16" LW50 stainless steel match barrel with Wylde Chamber and DD hand matched bolt
LMT 2 stage match trigger
Leupold MK4 1.5-5x20mm optic





Bravo Company SPR
18" BCM SS410 stainless steel match barrel with USMC SAM-R Chamber and BCM hand matched bolt
LMT 2 stage match trigger
Leupold MK4 4.5-14x50mm optic




Cameron

[ALCOAR]

Excellent reply Cameron....I like especially how you specifically tied in your precision AR's into this particular definition since most of us are driving with AR's in a precision capacity on this forum.

This thread has made my view on this topic far less "snobbish", and has help me disconnect my own personal definition and standard with other people's definition and standards...making it clear that precision is more about personal standards than it is universal standards.