"You can't be a real country unless you have a beer and an airline - it helps if you have some kind of football team, or some nuclear weapons, but in the very least you need a beer."
— Frank Zappa
If the gun goes dry I use my knife. If the knife breaks off I use my teeth. I have only one rule - Start one job and see it through - The universe will have to offer someone else the leftovers. Multi tasking doesn't work in business or in gunfighting.
- Michael de Bethencourt
Since the thread has been revived, here's a good video with some explanation from Frank Proctor... Skip to 1:10 for the rifle portion.
http://youtu.be/x_-RIwWXvrg
Owner/ Operator, Trojan Tactical LLC. TROTAC.com
I disagree with the "whatever works" train of thought.
If it is for plinking on the range, sure, knock yourself out. If it is for duty use, one should strive to employ techniques that are proven to be beneficial/superior. If you were to adjust your stance/grip, it should be due to the following factors:
-Mandated gear requiring a different grip; lasers, grenade launchers, bipods, flashlights, short rails etc
-Physical limitations; injuries, build etc limiting a shooter
-Awkward shooting positions precluding the use of the ideal technique
I have see way to many people advocate a tight, mag-well'esque grip on the weapon, because it is comfortable to carry it that way, and they manage to get hits on the range when static against full silhouette targets.
When we start firing more rapidly, do target transitions, movement etc poor technique and poor recoil control becomes more apparent in the ones who follow the "whatever works" methodology.
YMMV
It's not about surviving, it's about winning!
The first time I saw the hand forward technique was in 1981, so I would not says it's new. I think it feels more natural when moving with the rifle or carbine. I think it's a good technique for quickly engaging multiple targets. Any movement of the support hand with it placed out forward on the handguard moves the front sight considerably less than with the support hand placed at the magazine well.
That's my 2 cents and with inflation that does not go too far nowadays.
Last edited by T2C; 02-15-13 at 12:28.
Train 2 Win
I agree.
In the newish USAF qualification course of fire, one portion is two 3 rd bursts. The first time I qual'd using the new COF they told my group "aim at the bottom of the paper, recoil will push it up and over the top if you don't." People who used a magwell grip had this problem and the advice was sound. For me and one other, who gripped as far forward as possible for recoil control, had smallish groups at the bottom of the paper.
Last edited by Koshinn; 02-15-13 at 05:42.
"I never learned from a man who agreed with me." Robert A. Heinlein
...says the guy with a Frank Zappa quote in his sig.
As far as reviving this thread: The original question has been hashed out and answered. It's not a "new" way of holding the rifle. That was the OP question, and it's been answered. As for LAV...a quick look at Youtube could have answered (at least superficially) that question.
And "using what works for you" only really works after you've trained hard enough to understand what "works" means. There are plenty of shooters whose bad habits "work" for them.
********************
Certainly there is no hunting like the hunting of man and those who have hunted armed men long enough and liked it, never really care for anything else thereafter. -- Ernest Hemingway
In NAM we didn't use the Scorpion method of holding the rifle... and it cost us the war!
"What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v
Was there a point to that?
Are you saying that proper shooting technique is not relevant?
I understand that you don't appreciate all the new gadgets or fancy techniques, but it would really help the discussion along if you provided some context for your contrarian views, rather than just spouting off meaningless commentary. 3 recent topics that I've seen....
And the point isn't really if Costa exaggerates his support arm position or not, it's wether or not there is value in gripping the gun towards the muzzle or if gripping it further back towards the mag well works just as well.
It's not about surviving, it's about winning!
I think there's some merit to a more forward grip for "driving" the gun in short, rapid engagements.
I can shoot while moving just as fast (as far as I can perceive as the shooter) with an 11.5" gun with a standard 7" handguard if the sucker isn't overgassed and bouncing me off target.
I never go overboard with the Scorpion even if I have a rifle length rail... but If there's a lot of handguard, I'll grab more length for sure!
My fighting guns are shorter... so I don't want to grow muscle memory on the Scorpion.
"What would a $2,000 Geissele Super Duty do that a $500 PSA door buster on Black Friday couldn't do?" - Stopsign32v
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