I am not sure about doing a Trust.

[Bob, Esq.]

You don't have to agree with my examples, but they are examples of probelms I have personally seen and the facts are that there are a good number of trust out there that have errors in them because they were set up by folks that do not know what they are doing either under the trust law of their state or under the NFA. I also think the hostile tone and constant remarks of "stupid" and "moron" are uncalled for. In a perfect world everyone would be fully educated on NFA regulations, but as I am sure you are aware, this is not a perfect world. If you wish to disagree or prepare your own trust papers, that is your perogative. However I would ask, are you a licensed estate planning attorney? I am. I am also and FFL/SOT and I am also the person responsible for starting the present wave of NFA trusts through my article in SAR and posts on just about every web board out there over the last couple of years. I am working with the NFATCA specifically with regard to the matter of trust transfers and I have had BATFE agents refer clients to me for NFA related trust questions, and I have prepared over a hundred NFA trusts for clients so I think that establishes my credentials as far as knowing what I am talking about. As far as you not believing that people leave such items to minors, you are mistaken. I have had several trusts come across my desk that people have prepared themselves that provided just that. As far as your thinking that you cannot leave such assets to minors you are also mistaken. If the trust is properly drafted, you can leave NFA assets to minors, provided that trust makes provision for the trustee to hold the assets for the child's benefit until they reach legal age. As far as not keeping up with your trust and whether to make necessary amendments due to death, incapacity or some other disqualifying event, unfortunately not everyone is as on top of things as you. It is a common occurrence that folks don't always keep up their paperwork when life throws them changes or that they don't have the time to do so right away, both with general estate planning trusts as well as trusts set up for NFA only. If your assets go to your wife in your trust and she dies, not everyone's first thought is that they need to amend their NFA Trust. It is not just about personal responsibility, it is just how things work out in everyday life. There are indeed many self prepared trusts out there that are O.K. as is. I have reviewed many of them. But there are also quite a few that are deficient, some fatally so. That being said, as I stated before, if you want to be your own estate planning attorney, go right ahead, but do so at your own risk and understand the risks and potential expense involved.

Bob Howell, Esq.

[Don Robison]

You don't have to agree with my examples, but they are examples of probelms I have personally seen and the facts are that there are a good number of trust out there that have errors in them because they were set up by folks that do not know what they are doing either under the trust law of their state or under the NFA. I also think the hostile tone and constant remarks of "stupid" and "moron" are uncalled for.

I apologize if you took my comments as hostile, they weren't intended to be hostile. They were simply my opinion of someone who would try to leave weapons to minors without the aid of an attorney.

In a perfect world everyone would be fully educated on NFA regulations, but as I am sure you are aware, this is not a perfect world. If you wish to disagree or prepare your own trust papers, that is your perogative.

Correct it's not a perfect world.

However I would ask, are you a licensed estate planning attorney? I am. I am also and FFL/SOT and I am also the person responsible for starting the present wave of NFA trusts through my article in SAR and posts on just about every web board out there over the last couple of years. I am working with the NFATCA specifically with regard to the matter of trust transfers and I have had BATFE agents refer clients to me for NFA related trust questions, and I have prepared over a hundred NFA trusts for clients so I think that establishes my credentials as far as knowing what I am talking about.

I never said or implied you didn't know what you were talking about. What I did imply was that a lawyer always recommends a lawyer much like a mechanic always recommends a mechanic work on your car.

As far as you not believing that people leave such items to minors, you are mistaken. I have had several trusts come across my desk that people have prepared themselves that provided just that. As far as your thinking that you cannot leave such assets to minors you are also mistaken. If the trust is properly drafted, you can leave NFA assets to minors, provided that trust makes provision for the trustee to hold the assets for the child's benefit until they reach legal age. As far as not keeping up with your trust and whether to make necessary amendments due to death, incapacity or some other disqualifying event, unfortunately not everyone is as on top of things as you. It is a common occurrence that folks don't always keep up their paperwork when life throws them changes or that they don't have the time to do so right away, both with general estate planning trusts as well as trusts set up for NFA only.

I agree that people don't always keep up with their paperwork. It still doesn't make it excusable. If I were trying to leave the items to a minor or some other questionable party I would definitely get a lawyer involved. In my case it was pretty straight forward.

If your assets go to your wife in your trust and she dies, not everyone's first thought is that they need to amend their NFA Trust. It is not just about personal responsibility, it is just how things work out in everyday life. There are indeed many self prepared trusts out there that are O.K. as is. I have reviewed many of them. But there are also quite a few that are deficient, some fatally so. That being said, as I stated before, if you want to be your own estate planning attorney, go right ahead, but do so at your own risk and understand the risks and potential expense involved.

We're not that far off from agreeing. Everything in life is a gamble. At this stage in my life it wouldn't make much difference if my collection was sold or turned into the ATF if both my wife and I were to die. For others they have kids who want them, other relatives etc. I'm not in that position so when we are both gone it doesn't much matter what happens to our NFA stuff.

[SHIVAN]

Bob I believe you have articulated your concerns very well. I suppose that comes with the Esq. -

Anyhow, we take chances in everything we do in life. Even if we decide to seek the advice of a lawyer to draft an NFA conduit like the revocable living trust, who is to know for sure that the lawyer brought his "A-game" to the table on that occasion?

Who is to say that the NFA branch won't draft a new stipulation in the coming months or years that makes trusts a very difficult conduit to use for this sort of transfer?

We certainly appreciate your advice and concern, and I believe that we all understand that Willmaker, or other computer programs can never take the place of solid, competent, legal advice from a live human.

Thanks again for your extensive posts on this matter. It's provides a cogent counterpoint to the DIY trust makers.

[gaspipes]

You can buy willmaker or whatever. But I was lucky enough to have a dealer who regularly sets up trusts for $45 a pop.

I wouldn't know how to do it myself. There's been guys who screw it up and get delays.

You had your trust done by a guy who was/is practicing law without a license? That's not to smart.

[TY44934]

Thanks! that is the mother of all link lists for info on trusts.

Get the willmaker 2007 that comes with the book (the other one comes with the CD rom and costs more!).

$32.99 Quicken Willmaker Plus 2008 Edition: Estate Planning Essentials (Book with CD-ROM) (Paperback)

Having your dealer do it for you for $45.00 is fine, but you may want to have willmaker on your puter for when you want to print / change your schedule A. NFA items come in pairs, and 3s, and 4s, and..., you get the idea. That's fine though, having a class III dealer you can trust (no pun intended) and who works with you is the key. They will hold your item for weeks on end while the form 3 / form 4 / NFA shuffle goes on and on.

From what I've read (check out the ATF Turnaround silencer talk thread below), trust transfers are taking longer because of higher scrutiny. First 3 links below address this.

Check out these links:

send in schedule A with trust, arfcom

NFA wants my Schedule A for Transfere ???????, silencer talk

Its *official*...send in everything now for Trust Transfers, silencer talk forums

NFA FAQ, on-line BATF forms and more, arfcom

SBR FAQ, arfcom

My Form 4 is approved (those in NFA states should read this aka Trust transfer), SIGforum toovira thread

Small Arms Review Trust article, SIGforum

Setting up Trust instead of Corp for NFA items, arfcom

ATF turnaround Cont., Silencer Talk

State by State Chart of NFA Restrictions, no idea when this was last updated..., check your state laws / revised statues

another state listing, check, double check your state

ATF forms ordering

NFA Weapons, Silencer Talk

NFA Legal and Political Discussion, Silencer Talk

NFA, M4Carbine.net

General Class 3, arfcom

Class 3 Firearms, arfcom

How to set up a revocable living trust to purchase National Firearms Act (NFA) or Class 3 weapons

[markm]

You don't need willmaker on your puter if you have your dealer export your trust to a word.doc file and burn it to disc.

That's what they did for me, and I can update it on my pc at the house.

[CarlosDJackal]

You have to make a decide why and if a Revocable Living Trust is worth it. I started my RLT using Willmaker for a couple of reasons.

The first is it allowed me to name others as Alternate Trustees should the situation arise and I need someone to secure my NFA items. Currently my sister is first in line and had I been deployed to the Middle East last February, I would have exercised this option. And yes, she lives in a state where she can legally be in possession of said items and she is of legal age (I'm the youngest).

If she was not available, I have three other siblings who are also named in the RLT who can step in (a fourth one lives in Canada and cannot take on this role). Should I get married, I can add my wife to the RLT and she can take possession of the items without having to file another Form 1 (and additional taxes).

The second is it will allow my sister to step in and handle my affairs should I find myself in a comma. This includes handling my finances and gaining access to my accounts. I also made it so that she can perform such actions only with the approval of all five of my siblings. This way there is no way she can just do a withdrawal or sell any of my items without everyone's full consent. NOTE: I am in the process of starting a second RLT just to handle finances.

When we were preparing for deployment, I suggested to all my soldiers that they should look into using RLTs as a way to protect themselves from what other soldiers have already experienced. A number of Soldiers have lost all their possessions as well as their hard-earned cash while they were overseas because they chose to give their girlfriend or boyfriend, fiance, spouse, siblings, or parents full control of their assets. A well-written RLT (I suggested that they go through a JAG Officer) should protect them from such a situation.

FWIW, I plan on having our newly assigned JAG officer review and audit my RLT to see if he can suggestions some tweaks (if legally possible) and to write amy second RLT. YMMV.

[exkc135driver]

I'd venture to say that for every trust set up as an "NFA conduit" that might have some sort of "error", there are probably at least 10 or more that have no errors and no minors, felons or illegal aliens as trustees. The software methodolgy is not intended to replace a lawyer, or good legal advice, and I'd venture that if you follow their simple instructions it will probably hold up under scrutiny.

When I drive my car, the odds are high that I will not be involved in an accident, so I probably don’t need to wear my seat belt.

When I leave the house, odds are that no one will try to burgle it, so I probably don’t need to lock my doors.

My house is unlikely to burn down, so insuring it is probably a waste of money.

If the cost of failure is small – it probably won’t rain today, so I’ll leave my raincoat at home – then relying on something to “probably” not happen is fine. But speaking personally, if the cost of failure is significant, then I’m not going to rely on something “probably” not happening. So I wear seat belts, keep my doors locked, and pay my insurance premiums.

There “probably” won’t be a problem with the trust that you/your gun dealer/the plumber/some guy at a gun show prepared, but if there is, you’re screwed. More to the point, the problem may not be discovered until after you’re dead. Whatcha gonna do then?

Anyhow, we take chances in everything we do in life. Even if we decide to seek the advice of a lawyer to draft an NFA conduit like the revocable living trust, who is to know for sure that the lawyer brought his "A-game" to the table on that occasion?

Who is to say that the NFA branch won't draft a new stipulation in the coming months or years that makes trusts a very difficult conduit to use for this sort of transfer?

On the subject of trusts, I think I would trust a lawyer’s B- (or C-, or D-, or …) game over a layman’s A+ game anytime. Why is it that everybody thinks he knows the law better than (or at least as well as) a lawyer?

The lawyer knows your address. Who is to say that he isn’t going to break in to your house, kill you, rape your wife, sell your kids into slavery, steal your NFA items, and burn your house down?

People on this forum are always saying you should purchase top-of-the-line stuff for your ARs/M16s/M4s … don’t buy Chinese knockoff scopes or rails made for airsoft guns, but instead spend the bucks for an Aimpoint scope or a Larue rail. But then they let some guy at a gun show form a trust to hold their expensive NFA items.

I don’t get it.

[dbrowne1]

I'd venture to say that for every trust set up as an "NFA conduit" that might have some sort of "error", there are probably at least 10 or more that have no errors and no minors, felons or illegal aliens as trustees.

It's a lot more than just who is/are the trustee(s). You really have to think 2 and 3 steps ahead when you create these things, taking into account the transfer requirements of the NFA. You need to imagine and account for a lot of scenarios that programs like Quicken never could address. Those programs are designed for people leaving money and "normal" stuff to beneficiaries to avoid probate. Not people using the trust entity to own and direct the disposition of highly regulated firearms.

As (another) lawyer and NFA owner who has also prepared NFA gun trusts - and spent a great deal of time studying both the NFA and my state's trust code to address the concerns and contingencies raised by Bob Howell- I will just say that you should pay heed to what Bob Howell has said.

[dbrowne1]

Even if we decide to seek the advice of a lawyer to draft an NFA conduit like the revocable living trust, who is to know for sure that the lawyer brought his "A-game" to the table on that occasion?

If his lack of "A-game" causes you any harm, you can sue him for legal malpractice.

Can you sue Quicken or the guy at the booth at the gun show?