Learning irons before optics; must we?

[Dutchkma]

All my rifles are sighted in and ready to go with the improved (revised) battle sight zero. I can still make a 6x10 rail plate dance @ 100 yards with 58 year old eyes less optical assistance. Of course I am a lot more confidant with my Trijicon or Eotech, but I got no problem with my opens as a primary.

[potentmix]

I finished building my 1st rifle a couple months ago. When I completed the build I didn't have the money to purchase an aimpoint or eotech...or any high-quality optic for that matter. In fact, I still have yet to pick up a quality sight. I figured I'd learn to be proficient with my iron sights while I save up for either a 1-4x or 1-6x. I honestly thought I'd quickly grasp the use of irons and would be shooting one-hole groups in no time at all. However, after putting over 750 rounds through the rifle I've yet to feel 100% confident when using my iron sights. Even when zeroing I had more difficulty than expected. I've learned that one should take the time to become competent with their back-up sights...and not just expect to be able to use them when they need to. I guess it doesn't really matter if you're taking someone to the range and you just want them to have a good time hitting targets quickly & effectively.

For my rifle I used Troy's (M4 tritium front & di-optic non-tritium rear). They're robust and high-quality forsure. However the tritium vial makes the front sight post rather wide. I didn't realize how wide until I had the opportunity to inspect a pair of KAC back-ups at my lgs. I wish I'd had the foresight to compare the two as I feel much greater precision would be possible with the Knight sights (pun not intended). Or any non-tritium front sight for that matter.

[rcoodyar15]

I am certainly glad there all all the different options to iron sights

old eyes and iron sights just don't get along

now when i was young I could watch the bb's path while I shot pecans out of the tops of trees

I miss those eyes

[Stubby]

I'm in the army and we had to qualify with irons on our M4's before we could move on to the M68's or the acog if you were a squad or team leader


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[Koshinn]

I'm in the army and we had to qualify with irons on our M4's before we could move on to the M68's or the acog if you were a squad or team leader


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Have you, or anyone you know, used your irons in a real world situation?

[Eurodriver]

Crazy thing now is in the marines basic training they dont even train with irons, it's all with the acog.

There is nothing basic about Marine Corps Recruit Training.

If we are speaking strictly about combat, I want my guys being able to shoot whatever they have on their weapon. ACOGs aren't perfect, but they're damn near bulletproof, 4x, and stupid easy to understand. If Marines have ACOGs in country, I want them to learn how to use ACOGs. Who cares if they can or cannot shoot with irons? It's a nice thing from a nostalgic standpoint, but most Marines don't even use a BUIS anyway. About the only thing more useless than ESS Glasses (JSantoro really needs to smash some faces in at Quantico and get this situation rectified) is the Matech BUIS.

I've kept a carry handle in my butt pack as a BUIS for my entire time in the Corps. I never once used it except at CMCC and a PacDiv match.

[Stubby]

Have you, or anyone you know, used your irons in a real world situation?

Nope always have a cco or an acog


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[usmcvet]

There is nothing basic about Marine Corps Recruit Training.

If we are speaking strictly about combat, I want my guys being able to shoot whatever they have on their weapon. ACOGs aren't perfect, but they're damn near bulletproof, 4x, and stupid easy to understand. If Marines have ACOGs in country, I want them to learn how to use ACOGs. Who cares if they can or cannot shoot with irons? It's a nice thing from a nostalgic standpoint, but most Marines don't even use a BUIS anyway. About the only thing more useless than ESS Glasses (JSantoro really needs to smash some faces in at Quantico and get this situation rectified) is the Matech BUIS.

I've kept a carry handle in my butt pack as a BUIS for my entire time in the Corps. I never once used it except at CMCC and a PacDiv match.

Excellent post. I suppose one of the issues here is personal experience. I'm in the "I can't believe they don't use irons camp" because of my experience. I've never used an ACOG. I have wanted one but was never willing to pony up the cash. It was irons only when I was a Marine. BUT that's not the reality anymore as Eurodriver points out. Sooo I've kinda changed my mind. My kids have learned irons and I still see it as important but it's not the reality we have today. Like driving a standard. Does anyone do that anymore either.

Have you, or anyone you know, used your irons in a real world situation?

There are plenty but from the sound of it nothing in the past ten years or more. I suppose that's the point. Times have definitely changed. My personal guns have Aimpoints on them. So does the rifle I use at work. My patrol rifle only has the DD Iron sights on it now. With the Aimpoint it does not fit in the rack. The parts are on order to square that away. I don't need the rifle often and I don't feel at a disadvantage w/o the RDS. When we outfitted the cruiser my rifle had a fixed A1 upper on it. Now it has a flat top and should have a Pro on it but I we need the new bracket.

[usmcvet]

Few people have to learn how to drive manual transmissions but it sure could come in handy, you never know. Optics can and do break so it seems more than prudent to be comfortable with irons.

I come from a not-too-distant era where we ONLY received formal training on irons.

Me too!

I am working backwards on this thread. We both made the same point. I have a nostalgia for a stick shift and when I bought my last car I wanted to buy one. They did not have any in stock and I learned the automatic gets better gas mileage, in the car I was looking at, so that was the end of that.

http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/2...sion/index.htm

http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/...ck-shifts.html

[Berserkr556]

Always master the basics first before moving to the advanced. Learn,practice and master the iron sights from every possible real world shooting position before moving to an optic. When Murphy visits you and your optic takes a dump you'll be right at home with your irons.