Learning irons before optics; must we?

[MassMark]

There what is, exactly?

Is anyone honestly going to take the position that shooting with a red dot sight is not easier than shooting with irons?

Rob - you make it sound, (perhaps unintentionally) as if iron shooting is some mystical, complex holy grail that is beyond the understanding of new shooters - it isn't. You also make it sound, (perhaps unintentionally) as if new shooters are turned off by shooting a gun with irons only - that somehow an Aimpoint will magnetize them and steer them from the "difficulties" (?) of iron sight shooting - it won't. It's a bit absurd sounding, so perhaps you can provide some personal experiences of people shooting an iron sighted M4 and walking away going: "yuck no red dot"... It seems as if you're trying to make a point to an issue where there isn't one...

A rifle does not come from the factory with a red dot installed. Generally, they come with irons - be they a carry handle, BUIS or fixed sights - they are a part of the basic rifle - so what is so wrong about learning how to use them first? If one cannot teach new shooters to get on paper in relatively short order with irons, then it may speak to the method of teaching - rather than the method of target acquisition.

I recently took part in an Independence Day shoot as part of a regional gun forum I belong to, (NES). There were at least a dozen new shooters - many whom had never handled a weapon in their lives - let alone fired an EBR. I did not hear a single one complain that acquiring targets with iron-only guns they were handed was anything short of blissful....Again - issue where one may only minimally exist?

[Olav]

We basically agree. But to me, it's a shame that some shooters will never realize the accuracy of the AR platform because they'll jump straight into a dot.

If I was the king, you'd have to qualify on irons before buying a dot! But then Aimpoint would be out of business.

I can remember a guy here saying that he wanted a scope or something that would give him the ability to hit a milk jug at 100 yards. I have a problem with someone who can't do that all day long with irons.... now I know that's not the purpose of the aimpoint, but I'm just sighting it as an example of a shooter who doesn't know shit about the AR.

What is the requirement to "qualify" on irons? OOC.

[markm]

Is anyone honestly going to take the position that shooting with a red dot sight is not easier than shooting with irons?

Depends on what kind of shooting.

At contact distance, it is much easier and faster for me to shoot irons.

At long range, Irons are dramatically more precise.

At some mid ranges, in some adverse conditions, and RDS might give me an advantage over irons.

Believe me, I wouldn't run my home defense weapons without an Aimpoint if I thought I could do better with one. I run what I can shoot best and fastest.

[markm]

What is the requirement to "qualify" on irons? OOC.

5 shots, Sub 4 MOA at fifty (under a 2 inch group) with a carbean sight radius.

For rifle, Sub 3 MOA at 100 yards.

No time limit or limit on number of attempts. Any ammo you choose.

[SoDak]

I find this an interesting topic since this is a problem I have had trouble deciding between an RDS and irons. I have collected guns for a while, but I'm ashamed to say that I neglected to get good with them. I want to change that. Currently I have an m4 type rifle that didn't come with a carry handle, but I have been borrowing a carry handle off another gun so I can shoot it. However I have had trouble shotting good with irons, partially because for some reason(I'm guessing I'm doing something wrong) my front sight get very blurry. I've been considering getting getting an aimpoint and use what ammo I have on hand, but for the same price I could get a 1000 rounds of 5.56 an an iron sight and practice a bunch. I have noticed that I have gotten better over time with irons, but the blurry front sight issue remains. Is that something that would improve the more I use it? What would you guys say would be a better way to go(aimpoint or rear sight + ammo)? Sorry if this to much of a topic shift, but with a limited budget I want to ask the experts before I spend my money.

[Olav]

5 shots, Sub 4 MOA at fifty (under a 2 inch group) with a carbean sight radius.

For rifle, Sub 3 MOA at 100 yards.

No time limit or limit on number of attempts. Any ammo you choose.

Ok, good. I was getting 2MOA with a Carbine at 100yrds:




and sub 2MOA with a Carbine at 50yrds:



Prone.

[markm]

Ok, good. I was getting 2MOA with a Carbine at 100yrds:

and sub 2MOA with a Carbine at 50yrds:

Good shooting!

I'll approve your RDS permit. Keep in mind you have to requal in one year!

[Olav]

Good shooting!

I'll approve your RDS permit. Keep in mind you have to requal in one year!

Yes Sir!

[ARin]

this subject is apparently very shooter-dependent.

while mark is somehow able to be surgically precise and lightning fast with his peep and post....my shooting experience is vastly different. I am faster, more accurate with an RDS no matter how much i have and do train with irons.

Ill definitely kill the guy with irons, but ill put two in his heart and one in his thinker with an RDS.

For me, irons require a higher degree of concentration, and that costs me time. RDS shooting is essentially brainless. nothing to concentrate on, or align, even with flash sight pictures.

[markm]

while mark is somehow able to be surgically precise and lightning fast with his peep and post....my shooting experience is vastly different. I am faster, more accurate with an RDS no matter how much i have and do train with irons.

That's just it. I don't use the peep at contact distance. I only use the post... looking just over the top of the peep. Precision is not the idea. Rather fast center of mass hits with the same margin for error that you'd get with a dot system.

The idea is EXACTLY the same as the RDS concept except that I can see the front sight coming up onto the threat/target and time the break of the shot so that the hammer is dropping as soon as the front site is on target.

Now at mid ranges (40 to 50 yards or so) I can get a fast sight aligned pic with practice. But this is where you might catch up to me with a Dot. Generally I can plant the toe of the stock in my shoulder and get pretty good snap sight alignment with little to no adjustment. But a good dot shooter might get me in the medium ranges.