educate me on compact or subcompact DA/SA guns

[An Undocumented Worker]

I went through a CZ phase in the early 2000s. The good is that they have very good ergonomics and are accurate. The bad is that they tend to break parts on a regular basis, and require servicing often to retain their reliability outside of a static range. When their high end competition pistol models come from the factory with six(yes 6), extra slide stop levers and 3 extra trigger bar springs you know there is at least a couple of major problems with the design.

For most shooters that will likely never go beyond 5000rds on a pistol, the CZ will likely do just fine. For those shooters who expect more......well it's a risk. Having a slide stop, trigger spring, or extractor spring crap out on you in a fire fight can get you killed. A 3rd generation Glock, M&P, or HK P30 will exceed 50,000 rounds on average before things run the risk of breaking.

I appreciate the concern and am not looking to start an argument. However the info you have posted is pretty much the same rumor that has been regurgitated all across the web.

I have dug very deep looking for first hand accounts in regards to the concerns you posted, and the only thing I found was one individual who had a CZ that broke multiple slide stops due to the hole being drilled not quite perpendicular to the frame. This pistol was replaced for the guy buy CZ-USA at no cost to him. At 3,000 rounds on my PCR the slide stop shows no signs of abnormal wear or any cracks, I also have a 75B stainless with 2500 rounds through it and the story is the same there.

The PCR has a CZ Custom trigger return spring that was designed to alleviate the chance of it breaking, I replaced it while doing a trigger job on that pistol. the 75B has the factory TRS in there and countless dry fires through it, so far, so good.

With any brass cased ammo the factory extractor spring has been adequate in both guns. However aluminum cased ammo doesn't run well with the factory extractor spring, A Wolff extra power extractor spring was installed in the 75B and that made extraction of any case a non issue. Being that the blazer aluminum is hard to come by, I'm leaving the factory extractor spring in the PCR.

Steel cased ammo has not been an issue.

The only worn part I've experienced is the Recoil springs in both pistols started getting weak at around 2,200 rounds. The PCR uses a flat wound spring and was replaced with another factory unit. I experimented with Wolff Recoil springs in the 75B of varying weights but they didn't run very well in it, the recoil spring in the 75B was replaced with a factory weight spring from CZ-USA in 2010 and I noticed that it was manufactured differently than the spring that came in the pistol. It has held it's tension much better with less set than the stock spring, so it appears that CZ is working to address known issues.

In summary I have not been able to verify, (either personally or from first hand accounts) the same tired rumors that are spread about CZ's across the internet. Except for the factory recoil springs.

My personal pistols have run well whether filthy or clean.

[montrala]

I appreciate the concern and am not looking to start an argument. However the info you have posted is pretty much the same rumor that has been regurgitated all across the web.

Maybe CZ sold in USA are somehow better than those sold in Europe, but even fact that CZ throws 2 or 3 spare take down pins to each pistols (because they break so often) says something. Lot of people in my area use CZ: 75, 85, SP-01, TS (aka IPSC), Champion. I see number of problems with them. Mostly broken take down pins, flying out firing pins and broken trigger return springs. Also good idea is to stay out of factory adjustable sights. OF course I will not mention stoppages, usually in form of stovepipe or failure to return to battery. Of course I've seen pistols behaving lot worse than any CZ (mostly different flavour of 1911 design, some very stubborn SIGs, etc.) and can not say that CZ is generally POS, but for me CZ problems are not internet rumours. I just witness it on the range, also in pistols used by CZ factory shooting team, that use custom shop guns. Maybe because those CZ pistols that I see are actually used and 2500 or 3000 shots is not total round count, but comes like in half a year of use for average (factory team shooters can go trough 2 or 3 pistols in a year). As mentioned before, modern pistol is expected of 50.000 trouble free use, not 2000 or 5000 like 100 years ago.

BTW When I wanted to buy CZ for competition use I got advised not to do so by experienced shooters from... Czech Republic.

[An Undocumented Worker]

Maybe CZ sold in USA are somehow better than those sold in Europe, but even fact that CZ throws 2 or 3 spare take down pins to each pistols (because they break so often) says something. Lot of people in my area use CZ: 75, 85, SP-01, TS (aka IPSC), Champion. I see number of problems with them. Mostly broken take down pins, flying out firing pins and broken trigger return springs. Also good idea is to stay out of factory adjustable sights. OF course I will not mention stoppages, usually in form of stovepipe or failure to return to battery. Of course I've seen pistols behaving lot worse than any CZ (mostly different flavour of 1911 design, some very stubborn SIGs, etc.) and can not say that CZ is generally POS, but for me CZ problems are not internet rumours. I just witness it on the range, also in pistols used by CZ factory shooting team, that use custom shop guns. Maybe because those CZ pistols that I see are actually used and 2500 or 3000 shots is not total round count, but comes like in half a year of use for average (factory team shooters can go trough 2 or 3 pistols in a year). As mentioned before, modern pistol is expected of 50.000 trouble free use, not 2000 or 5000 like 100 years ago.

BTW When I wanted to buy CZ for competition use I got advised not to do so by experienced shooters from... Czech Republic.

If you could provide more specific information I would certainly appreciate it, Such as which models were supplied with multiple slide stops, what model years they were etc, would help to figure out just what changes have been made over the years. Here in the states every CZ I've seen has been supplied with one slide stop/takedown pin.
Roundcounts when breakages were seen would also be helpful.

If I could find 2 cases of ammo at under $190.00 usd per a case I'd be willing to run the 2,000 round challenge with one of mine, just to see what happens

[GrandPooba]

thanks everybody for the advice.

Have to rule out H&Ks as they are pretty much impossible to find in MA. Still on the hunt for a normal 3913 in a private party sale. Don't think I will be able to order online as 3913's aren't legal for dealer sales in MA and I don't think I'll find a dealer willing to transfer it. I did find a 3913 Lady Smith for private party sale, but doesn't seem like Crossbreed makes a holster for them.

[montrala]

Such as which models were supplied with multiple slide stops, what model years they were etc, would help to figure out just what changes have been made over the years. Here in the states every CZ I've seen has been supplied with one slide stop/takedown pin.
Roundcounts when breakages were seen would also be helpful.

Models that I've seen supplied with multiple slide stops are from 75 series including SP-01 Shadow, Tactical Sport (aka IPSC) and CzechMate model. Usually it is one spare, 2 for TS model in .40SW and saw 3 in ChechMate (but this came with spare barrel as well).

I do not know exact round counts, as those were not my pistols, but as far as I can remember from talking to owner it can be from 1500 to 5000 rounds. This, of course, happens more often on .40SW guns. Actually lot of shooters replace slide stops (giving up slide stop feature) with titanium pins, that roll inside receiver (kind like M4 trigger pins) and are held in place by pieces of duct or electrical tape on sides of frame. This cure take down pin breaks, or so I've been told.

Most of this observations are from big IPSC matches (usually round count of 200 to 500 rounds per match). Usually shooters attend 5 to 15 that big matches per year plus several smaller ones. Add training and this is serious round count. CZ factory team shoots big match somewhere in Europe (or beyond) basically every weekend, so they can worn out several pistols a year. Glocks, HKs or STI/SVI usually see higher round counts before they are replaced. I also witness lot of reliability problems with pistols that are actually nothing more than CZ 75 clones (Tanfoglio from Italy sold in US as EEA Witness if I'm correct and Sphinx from Swiss), but not breaking take down pins.

However CZ have significant advantages that made them popular - good ergonomy, great trigger, flat shooting due to low slide mass, lot of factory "competition" parts that are legal in IPSC Production (it is far more restricted that USPSA Production) and as one most important thing - big magazine capacity of SP-01 Shadow (effectively even 18+1 or 19+1) for Production division. Since this went out after 15 rounds loaded rule, I know shooters that gave up on CZ and went to HK P30LS instead or came back to Glock 17.

Actually I like shooting CZ, those are great shooting pistols, but I would never trust it enough to use it as my carry pistol.

[Limey-]

2000-3000 rounds do not really speak to whether a pistol is robust or not.
The average class will account for half of that in two days. Almost any modern pistol should hit that round count reliably over time. If you run 2-3k though it ins few days and have 20+k rounds through it reliably then that's a decent benchmark for a none range platform.

[jmreagan]

+1

You'll be a much better shooter/gun fighter if you stick with one platform and NOT have several different models. "Fear the man who decides to only have one gun......he'll know how to use it."

I feel that the best DA/SA guns out there right now are the H&K series. Full sized models would be the P30/P30L or HK 45, compact models would be the P2000 and HK45c, and subcompact would be the P2000SK. Variant #3 is DA/SA with decocker which is usually the standard trigger configuration.

I love that quote about the man with one gun. OP, I agree, stick with one, two platforms at the very most and shoot the hell out of those guns and you will improve.

[Eliakim]

montrala,
This discription of the CZ 75 series is very helpful for me since I have been considering buying a SP-01 pistol for recreational range use. The big SP-01 weighs about as much as a steel framed 1911 government model, but it shoots the mild-recoiling 9mm. CZ's are known to have good barrels and the price is reasonable so I thought it would be a good hobby pistol.

I will not use the CZ as an everyday carry pistol, I have an HK for that use.

Thank you.

Models that I've seen supplied with multiple slide stops are from 75 series including SP-01 Shadow, Tactical Sport (aka IPSC) and CzechMate model. Usually it is one spare, 2 for TS model in .40SW and saw 3 in ChechMate (but this came with spare barrel as well).

I do not know exact round counts, as those were not my pistols, but as far as I can remember from talking to owner it can be from 1500 to 5000 rounds. This, of course, happens more often on .40SW guns. Actually lot of shooters replace slide stops (giving up slide stop feature) with titanium pins, that roll inside receiver (kind like M4 trigger pins) and are held in place by pieces of duct or electrical tape on sides of frame. This cure take down pin breaks, or so I've been told.

Most of this observations are from big IPSC matches (usually round count of 200 to 500 rounds per match). Usually shooters attend 5 to 15 that big matches per year plus several smaller ones. Add training and this is serious round count. CZ factory team shoots big match somewhere in Europe (or beyond) basically every weekend, so they can worn out several pistols a year. Glocks, HKs or STI/SVI usually see higher round counts before they are replaced. I also witness lot of reliability problems with pistols that are actually nothing more than CZ 75 clones (Tanfoglio from Italy sold in US as EEA Witness if I'm correct and Sphinx from Swiss), but not breaking take down pins.

However CZ have significant advantages that made them popular - good ergonomy, great trigger, flat shooting due to low slide mass, lot of factory "competition" parts that are legal in IPSC Production (it is far more restricted that USPSA Production) and as one most important thing - big magazine capacity of SP-01 Shadow (effectively even 18+1 or 19+1) for Production division. Since this went out after 15 rounds loaded rule, I know shooters that gave up on CZ and went to HK P30LS instead or came back to Glock 17.

Actually I like shooting CZ, those are great shooting pistols, but I would never trust it enough to use it as my carry pistol.

[ThirdWatcher]

Walther PPS (with S&W 3913 a close second).

[legumeofterror]

I went through a CZ phase in the early 2000s. The good is that they have very good ergonomics and are accurate. The bad is that they tend to break parts on a regular basis, and require servicing often to retain their reliability outside of a static range. When their high end competition pistol models come from the factory with six(yes 6), extra slide stop levers and 3 extra trigger bar springs you know there is at least a couple of major problems with the design.

For most shooters that will likely never go beyond 5000rds on a pistol, the CZ will likely do just fine. For those shooters who expect more......well it's a risk. Having a slide stop, trigger spring, or extractor spring crap out on you in a fire fight can get you killed. A 3rd generation Glock, M&P, or HK P30 will exceed 50,000 rounds on average before things run the risk of breaking.

If one understands the limitations of thier handgun, and keeps up with whatever preventative maintenance it may require, then what is the problem? I do not require my handgun to survive 5,000 plus rounds without any sort of maintenance. That is a situation I do not expect to experience, and see it as a rather unreasonable requirement. Spending ~$40 a year for a new slide stop and trigger bar spring is not something I would consider a huge problem Personally, I have not experienced any malfunctions in my 3500 rounds and will be replacing those particular parts soon. Granted some handguns don't require this kind of maintenance and could be considered "better" for it, but it doesn't much effect me and I find a bit of extra time and money to ensure reliability is more than worth using my preferred handgun. I see myself at no disadvantage than if I were to use a handgun that is considered more durable, because I know the limitations of the design and address them appropriately.

As far as thier competition models coming with extra slide stops, I would imagine it is simply thier understanding that it is a wear part, and that those handguns will see much more shooting than would be expected of thier other models, considering the kind of shooter it is being marketed to.