Improved Bullet design since FBI shootout

[TXBob]

I wanted to split off a discussion fromthe .40 FBI thread to a question I had revisiting the information based around the "FBI shootout"

The basic questions is: What about ammunition, specifically in 9mm has improved that gives it the required penetration of 12" at a consistent rate.

The reason I ask is based on 2 things. 1st page 5 of this report shows only a 67% penetration rate of 9mm (and 38 +p):
http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

Of course that is now 20+ years ago. We have in our stickies data showing 12" penetration from several 9 mm loads and a note that bullet design has improved in the intervening years. (Not to mention resources around the web that demonstrate the same data for current loads).

I was just curious as to the specifics of What in particular about design has improved the penetration rate of the smaller caliber rounds?

[Moltke]

This thread can help you.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19887

[TXBob]

No that's not actually not very helpful.

Careful reading of my original post will notice a reference to our stickies and my question is not whether 9 mm is equal to 45 or what loads are adequete-- but what specifically changed. In particular at the end of the sticky you will notice a comment that bullet design has changed in the intervening years.

My question is "what details of the bullet design contributed to the improved performance?" and a technical discussion of how they improved penetration

[Moltke]

I know this is not a 9mm vs 45acp thread, and wasn't trying to make it into one. You want to know what's a good load for 9mm? Doc Roberts put together this list and describes it as "outstanding terminal performance" so to me that says they all reached the minimum of 12 inches of penetration:

"The following loads all demonstrate outstanding terminal performance and can be considered acceptable for duty/self-defense use:

9 mm:
Barnes XPB 115 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Federal Tactical 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Federal HST 124 gr +P JHP (P9HST3)
Remington Golden Saber 124 gr +P JHP bonded (GSB9MMD)
Speer Gold Dot 124 gr +P JHP
Winchester Partition Gold 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Winchester Ranger-T 124 gr +P JHP (RA9124TP)
Winchester Ranger-T 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Federal Tactical 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Federal HST 147 gr JHP (P9HST2)
Remington Golden Saber 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr JHP
Winchester Ranger-T 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Winchester 147 gr bonded JHP (RA9B/Q4364)"



You want to know what's changed in bullet design?

Companies started making hollowpoints better.

"-- Bullet designs like the Silver Tip, Hydra-Shok, and Black Talon were state of the art 15 or 20 years ago. These older bullets tend to plug up and act like FMJ projectiles when shot through heavy clothing; they also often have significant degradation in terminal performance after first passing through intermediate barriers. Modern ammunition which has been designed for robust expansion against clothing and intermediate barriers is significantly superior to the older designs. The bullets in the Federal Classic and Hydrashok line are outperformed by other ATK products such as the Federal Tactical and HST, as well as the Speer Gold Dot; likewise Winchester Ranger Talons are far superior to the old Black Talons or civilian SXT's." -Doc GKR


If you want to understand what actually makes their new hollowpoints better than their old hollowpoints then it's things like jacket design both in shape and thickness, bonding between the lead cores and jackets and maybe some other stuff too.

[Microalign]

Taken from the FBI "10mm Notes":

Reasons for Adoption of 10mm:

1. Initial Test Results(12/88-1/89) on which decision based:
A. .38 Special +P - 158gr lead hollow point
-Success rate meeting 12" minimum 67.5%
-Wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 2.16
-Average penetration: 11.76
-Test barrel average group: 2.992
-Service weapon average group: 10.863

B. 9mm Subsonic - 147gr jacketed hollow point
-Success rate meeting 12" minimum 67.5%
-Wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 2.82
-Average penetration: 13.84
-Test barrel average group: 2.305
-Service weapon average group: 2.774

C. .45 ACP - 185gr jacketed hollow point
-Success rate meeting 12" minimum 92.5%
-Wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 3.98
-Average penetration: 19.95
-Test barrel average group: 2.040
-Service weapon average group: 4.319

D. 10mm FBI Load - 180gr jacketed hollow point(980fps)
-Success rate meeting 12" minimum 97.5%
-Wound volume (cubic inches of tissue disrupted): 4.11
-Average penetration: 17.90
-Test barrel average group: 0.893
-Service weapon average group: 2.550

Some other stuff about the 9mm:

*Why didn't the 9mm do better - that is suprising?
-The 9mm is no more effective than the .38 Special, which should not be suprising since they are the same caliber bullets(.35 caliber) at the same range of velocities and bullet weights.

*Are you saying the 9mm is no good?
-No. We are saying it is as good as the .38 Special, which has served us for a long time. It has severe limitations, which we are not willing to accept. It is woefully inadequate for shooting at people in cars, for example, and over half of our shootings involve vehicles. It is a marginally adequate wounding agent. We have had a number of 9mm shootings over the past couple of years, and if you define a good shooting as one in which the subject stops whatever he was doing when he gets shot, we have yet to have a good one, and we are hitting our adversaries multiple times. We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year, and have not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veterinary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round. It is just nowhere near as effective as the 10mm and .45 offerings, and the disparity between it and the larger calibers has remained a constant throughout all the testing we have done over the past two years.

At the time, this thinking was ground breaking, and based on many years of OIS data and lab testing. Whether or not it remains relevant today is up for debate. The training techniques of today emphasize repeated shots on your subject with semiautos, which usually results in multiple hits on the subject in OISs since most duty pistols now days have approximately a 15+1 magazine capacity and are chambered in very controllable calibers. So, even if the 9mm is still a "marginally adequate wounding agent", or a poor windshield penetrator, multiple shots make up for it and can conceal the accuracy of statistical data. In yesteryears, officers often used low capacity revolvers or semiautos resulting in fewer shots fired on subjects which I feel was a better indicator of caliber effectiveness in the field. Obviously ammunition design has improved in the last two decades. The relevance of OIS statistics is another debate entirely.

[Jack-O]

I was just curious as to the specifics of What in particular about design has improved the penetration rate of the smaller caliber rounds?

I'd have to say the availablility and affordability of heat treatment and plating processes.

Monolithic designs tempered to expand in a repeatable manner, and bonding of the jacket to the core.

Oh, and possibly better powders for more velocity too.

[TXBob]

<snip>
. Obviously ammunition design has improved in the last two decades. The relevance of OIS statistics is another debate entirely.

Please stop reposting material not germaine to the discussion. Yes design has improved, I was seeking knowledge about the specifics of said improvement.

Doc has repeatedly stated that a excellent guideline is 12-18" of penetration. I do not wish to question that guideline. I do not want to disucss the applicability that guideline. I am taking as a baseline that it is indeed an excellent guideline.

I am taking 2 points of data
1) The initial report I linked that characterzied 9mm penetration at 67% success (to 12 inches or more)
2) Current recommendations for duty loads which both our stickies and http://www.firearmstactical.com which reports test loads through gelatin, of which many 9mm bullets now acheive increased success rates of 12-18" penetration.

I accept both of these data points as VALID.

My question is what specifically in design changed between these two points. Hopefully that will put the discussion on track instead of rehashing old discussions.

[Generalpie]

Moltke answered that for you.

"companies started making hollow points better."

Exactly what they did is a matter of educated guesses because I imagine they are not all very free with their R&D results.

Ultimately an improvement in materials and construction has made for better performing handgun projectiles. Some of those possibilities were already mentioned as well, particularly improvements in bonding technologies.

Now just to get certain agencies to understand this and stop issuing me HydraShoks is another matter all together.

[Jack-O]

Moltke answered that for you.

"companies started making hollow points better."

the Op already was in possesion of that knowledge. it was not an answer at all.

As I pointed out above, it was an evolution in techniques and technology in metalurgy and powder that added up to an increase in performance.

[pilotguyo540]

Am I the only one to catch that the 9mm in the study is SUBSONIC?