Going into class "cold"

[rickp]

The entire point has been "don't try to self teach yourself how to do something when you have a class coming up soon" - let your instructor do it. Some people are too caught up in how they look in front of other people, which I believe is STRONGLY driving this whole "prep for a class" crap.

The entire thread HAS NOT been about self teaching yourself how to do something when you have a class coming up soon.
It's been about practicing what you already do on a regular basis.

Some people are too caught up in how they look in front of other people, which I believe is STRONGLY driving this whole "prep for a class" crap.

Are you for real??? This is probably one of the dumbest statements I've read in the internet in a long while, and we all know how full of these the internet is. Nice contribution on your part.
You keep bringing this up. Maybe you're the one concerned with how people look, seem to have noticed it quite a bit.

As for "we all go to classes to learn to shoot better"...that's one of your assumptions that you're projecting on us, too (if you want to play that game).

That's quite presumptuous of you to possibly know the reasons why people are taking a course. And to add a little side note, if you think people are maintaining their training routine right up to the day before the class just to "look good" as you claim, is just idiotic.

I've seen plenty of guys at classes who refused to listen to the instruction they were given. Seen it at most classes I've been to. They were not there to learn, they were there for a merit badge.

Again, how could you possibly know that?? You must have been paying a lot of attention to the strangers around you to make that assertion. Maybe if you fosused more on your own shooting and less time assuming why others are there, you wouldn't have to "Prepare to learn"

So, you don't get to lecture me on projections and assumptions...you're doing exactly what you think I am.

You seem to be an expert at this. You're comments are proof of it, so not an assumption on my part.

Most instructors will tell you they'd prefer a new student, to one that has learned something the wrong way. Ever hear of a "bad habit"?

Again, with you're alleged level of training this comment just doesn't fit the discussion.

How many threads to we see where guys getting ready to go into military service ask how to prepare for the shooting? The universal answer is "your drill sgts will show you everything you need to know".

No different, here. Practicing (and trying to get up to 100% speed) at an old way of doing things, likely won't help you perform a new way of doing things any better.

You're all over the place with you points.

I had experience handling guns before basic training. As a result I shot the best out of 40 other guys, and my drills wanted me to go to sniper school after. How did that hurt me. Again, your point is moot.

For example: I went and did an LAV 1911 class. On the 1911, I'm better off using my LH thumb than my RH thumb, to drop the slide on a reload. I'm well practiced at dropping it with my RH thumb, as that's how I do so on my Glocks. Whenever I tried to go fast, I instinctively tried to use my RH thumb first (sometimes it worked, but my grip had to break to do so), but it wasn't what I was trying to learn to do on the 1911 at that class.

If you practiced before the class, you might have been more proficient.
Also if you used the overhand method it would have been a non issue, the term you should have learn in all your training is "consistency". But that's a whole other discussion.

If I went out and practiced reloads more before the class, it only would have been more of a struggle for me to get used to using my LH thumb.

This is just idiotic at every level. I can't even make an argument on this.

If you are not at the level that Shawn or myself are, and this doesn't apply to you...then don't do what we've found works for us. Everyone reading this thread has a brain and can decide what makes sense for them. If you think you need to be the guiding light, and any advice given to the contrary is a "grave disservice" then I'd say I'm not the one with the "ego problem".

Negative, Hero, this is a disservice. Telling people of your so called "level" not to practice is a disservice. Not an ego problem.

If you still struggle learning the new material though, a wise person would re-consider their strategy and try a different approach.

And you think NOT practicing, NOT training is the answer.
That's a very responsible answer.

[Shawn.L]

The questions aren't really serious questions, they're a series of straw-man propositions that have been addressed repeatedly, you've simply not liked the answers. The bottom line is that being unprepared is inferior to being prepared. This is a simple, elegant and hardly a radical idea. That disagreement with it seems to require all kinds of mental gymnastics, hypotheticals and other sophistry to discredit points to its truth.

As for the persecution complex some have vocalized, I'm a bit amazed and confused that disagreement with an idea equates to a personal attack let alone that any one or two people have a monopoly on disagreement with their ideas. Seriously...harden the f*(k up.

well no ****ing shit.

Im not sure at this point who some of the people in this thread think they are arguing with or what they think they have read here.

Im hoping some of this is in response to the responses here and not directed to my OP.

Ive never said one shouldnt be prepared for a class.

FOR ME, being prepared at this point is about having my gear sorted out, zero confirmed (which it should be anyway) , and making sure Im well rested and ready for class. If I happen to not shoot more than a box of ammo the week before class Im not suddenly going to be unprepared.
Im pretty confident in my cold skills. I hadnt shot since the TS course I started this thread before and I ran Defoor Pistol Test #1 Saturday with no warmup right from the holster and passed it. Its not an easy test. I usually start my range trips with a cold skills assesment.

Speaking to bear before the class (his first multiple day pistol course) he was preapred as he had already taken a couple entry level single day courses, understands the basics intellectually, and can handle a gun safely. My advise to him was about not getting too worked up before class, not to do anything special practice wise before class, and just go in ready to learn.
he shot next to me that weekend, and he did great. By doing great I dont mean he smoked every drill and showed us all how awesome he was. By doing great I mean he listened, learned, practiced, and showed marked improvement through the weekend. Shooting this past weekend with him I SAW with my own eyes that he had made improvements and was actively working on what he had learned.

Im not sure what everyone is reading into here, but I didnt mean to start a thread to tell people to not prepare for class, and acting like I did is nuts.

Let me restate my OP in maybe better language.

I personally like to take a short shooting break before I go into class, helps me feel like Ive cleaned my slate before class.
Ive taken several courses, and I practice regularly, so I dont see much skills degredation when I do this but it sometimes brings out issues which otherwise arent exposed that I would like to work on.
At this point I am more interested in improving my cold skills than on my peak performance.
I also feel that if I was to practice out of the normal for a class, by say running drills I know an instructor will run that I dont normally, or upping my practice in preperation for the class that it would feed into a "game the class" mindset that I wish to discourage.

How do you prepare for class? what kinds of classes ? Have you ever tried going in relatively "cold" ? why not ? And then please explain along with some background information.


I think that communicates it better.

[orionz06]

I personally like to take a short shooting break before I go into class, helps me feel like Ive cleaned my slate before class.

By "cleaned your slate" are you referring to the performance thing discussed, no anxiety, etc?

[Shawn.L]

By "cleaned your slate" are you referring to the performance thing discussed, no anxiety, etc?

and this is why I hate the internet sometimes.

Im not sure how much clearer I can state it , but rather than share any experiance you might have you ask for definitions of parts of sentences.

[orionz06]

and this is why I hate the internet sometimes.

Im not sure how much clearer I can state it , but rather than share any experiance you might have you ask for definitions of parts of sentences.

I have done classes and learning without shooting or dry fire for almost a month, never before, unprepared, and "prepping" in the AM of each day. I have always picked up on new things and learned, even when I thought the instructor was full of shit. My performance in the class was not an issue, even when I sucked pretty bad. In fact, not performing well got me through a few issues, but that is not new, everyone knew that.

I have gone into other learning/performing ventures the same way, never once has the "clean slate" feeling helped me learn. Now the performance aspect, yes, sometimes I did something too much to the point of not wanting to do it. In other sports where I had (might still have) the skill and understanding to teach others I have never seen it either. I have seen total immersion into the subject to the point where the person no longer cared, but not caring is not willing to learn.

I am hoping for a more dumbed down answer, but I talked with two psychologists and responses indicate that the performance a time period prior should not change your ability to learn. In short, there are other things at play if it helps you learn more. If your performance in class is enough of a concern there are also other things going on. Cleaned slate is not gonna directly help you learn more.


FWIW, I will likely be in my next class "cold" too as time will not permit much shooting in the coming weeks. Having knew how it effected me before, I will compare again as there is a much larger microscope under my class prep in the short term.

[Jim D]

The entire thread HAS NOT been about self teaching yourself how to do something when you have a class coming up soon.
It's been about practicing what you already do on a regular basis.

No, it hasn't.

Maybe that's why you're so cranky...your reading comprehension is the problem.

agree, but shouldnt the "homework" be your consistant meaningful practice and not "cramming" before th class date? I mean if you have "done your homework" in that larger sense then taking the week off before class shouldnt make you fall to pieces.

I mean I practice plenty, normally 200/week pistol. So its not like I suddenly become unprepared by not shooting a week before class.

I'm not saying don't practice because you might learn something different in the future...I'm saying what's the point of trying to "warm up" for learning something new?

For the sole reason that you have a class coming up, YES.

You should be practicing what you learned after the last class because you want to improve. Practicing because you have to shoot in font of other people soon in a class is just vain....
My point has nothing to do with practice and learning between classes, it has to do with what people do to "prepare" for the class. You should be preparing for you, all the time...not for someone else because of an upcoming class.

Where did I suggest stopping practicing? If you shoot weekly, then do so. Suggesting that people "need to prepare" for a class, and do something different than their typical practice/training routine is what I'm disagreeing with.

What are you even calling "unprepared"? Myself, and others who share my position in this thread, are merely talking about not trying to practice before a class, solely because the class is coming up.

This says nothing about about not being a good shooter, or not practicing on your usual schedule. The entire point has been "don't try to self teach yourself how to do something when you have a class coming up soon" - let your instructor do it.

Hey, I don't have a recipe...I was just saying "do what you are already doing".

If you are shooting 25 yard bulls and running el-prez's every week, then rock on.

It's the concept of fearing failure in a class that bothers me. If people go to the range (insert a length of time here) before their upcoming class, with the idea in their heads of "oh man, i better not **** up in front of LAV, I need to get better at this before then"...they're missing the point of receiving instruction, IMO.

I'm not saying "stop practicing X weeks before you train"...I'm saying "practicing BECAUSE you will be learning something new soon doesn't make sense to me." Does that make sense?

I agree. Practice to get better. Doing it BECAUSE of the upcoming class is all I've been commenting on

If you missed all of this, I guess that's because you're not paying attention to what I've been saying.

Are you for real??? This is probably one of the dumbest statements I've read in the internet in a long while, and we all know how full of these the internet is. Nice contribution on your part.
You keep bringing this up. Maybe you're the one concerned with how people look, seem to have noticed it quite a bit.



That's quite presumptuous of you to possibly know the reasons why people are taking a course. And to add a little side note, if you think people are maintaining their training routine right up to the day before the class just to "look good" as you claim, is just idiotic.



Again, how could you possibly know that?? You must have been paying a lot of attention to the strangers around you to make that assertion. Maybe if you fosused more on your own shooting and less time assuming why others are there, you wouldn't have to "Prepare to learn"

Thanks for the lecture, dude.

Tell you what, why don't you quantify how it is that you know better than I do how to learn in a class?

What classes have you done, and what are YOUR scores on these drills: Hack/700/Defoor standards/10-8 standards/FAM TPC?

You want to talk about my statements being "stupid", my doing a "disservice" to shooters, etc....Let's see what you're bringing to the table, and why we should all listen to your opinion on it.

With all of the attitude and intensity that you've been disagreeing with me, you've got to have a strong reason for believing what you do...

How about you post it up for us to see, and we can decide just how much you've learned from your training, yourself.

Can you back up your talk?

You seem to be an expert at this. You're comments are proof of it, so not an assumption on my part.

Again, with you're alleged level of training this comment just doesn't fit the discussion.

Alleged? Dude, I linked you pictures I'm in and AAR's I wrote! What more proof do you want?

How about you post your resume, and we can compare and contrast how many classes YOU'VE "allegedly taken", with how YOU can perform on some popular difficult drills.

You're all over the place with you points.

I had experience handling guns before basic training. As a result I shot the best out of 40 other guys, and my drills wanted me to go to sniper school after. How did that hurt me. Again, your point is moot.

If you practiced before the class, you might have been more proficient.

Also if you used the overhand method it would have been a non issue, the term you should have learn in all your training is "consistency". But that's a whole other discussion.

This is just idiotic at every level. I can't even make an argument on this.

Negative, Hero, this is a disservice. Telling people of your so called "level" not to practice is a disservice. Not an ego problem.

And you think NOT practicing, NOT training is the answer.
That's a very responsible answer.

I don't understand what your problem is with me, or why you take is so personally, but it's kinda sad. If it doesn't apply to you and your ability level, don't do it. Where did I say you should?

Unless you want to put up your scores (I'll put up video of me shooting, if you want...already have on some drills) and prove WHY you think you know better...I'm done with this bickering.

I've spent enough time trying to explain myself to someone who only wants to talk smack on someone elses way of doing things.

[rickp]

Tell you what, why don't you quantify how it is that you know better than I do how to learn in a class?

I don't think I know better. It's my opinion. One that is with the majority.

What classes have you done, and what are YOUR scores on these drills: Hack/700/Defoor standards/10-8 standards/FAM TPC?

You want to talk about my statements being "stupid", my doing a "disservice" to shooters, etc....Let's see what you're bringing to the table, and why we should all listen to your opinion on it.

I'm not here to convince anyone. I'm writing to you. Again, most have seen through this nonsense.

Jim, this isn’t a personal attack.
Organizations I've trained with include but are not limited to 7th SFG, ITTS Scott Reitz, Frank Garcia Universal Shooting Academy, E.A.G. Tactical Pat Rogers, Cumberland Tactics Randy Cain, Viking Tactics Kyle Lamb, South Florida SWAT Team, Rifles Only, International Training Group, plus a couple of other organizations.
I’ve also trained with numerous private military companies like Blackwater, MVM, SOC-SMG, EODT, Cochise Consultancy. And this doesn’t include the countless hours of in country training we did within our company and with other SF units while in Iraq as a Security Contractor.

With all of the attitude and intensity that you've been disagreeing with me, you've got to have a strong reason for believing what you do...

I do, I just keep practicing my standard manipulations so I can continue to get better. Simple concept. And I'm not the only one that believes it.

How about you post it up for us to see, and we can decide just how much you've learned from your training, yourself.
Can you back up your talk?

I certainty can, but wont. For starters I don't need to prove anything to anyone other than myself. Second, we're talking about mindset, not skill. This is about how you prepare to accept information and instruction, which in my opinion is part of one's mindset. This isn't about who is better, it's about a training technique that I don't agree with, and neither does the majority of the people that have contributed to this thread.
I could be a brand new shooter with only one basic manipulations course under my belt. As such a shooter seeking to excel, I would keep practicing those things taught to me all the way up to the night before my second training course, regardless of what I might be taught in that second class. If I decide that what I was shown in that second class is more efficient than what I was taught in the first, then I'll just start practicing the second method. Either way, I'll be proficient at both, and that can't hurt.
So videos, of us looking cool for others is really irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Again, this isn't personal Jim, really. Like others have said though, it's also my opnion that telling people that no training and strengthening their manipulations before a course is not good advice, that's all. I'm not trying to convince anyone, just my opinion.

[STAFF]

All done...