When to Engage a Threat?

[2theXtreme]

I am sure you all have heard about the IHOP shooting of 7 people 3 of whom were Guardsmen in Carson City Nevada. After telling the girlfriend about the story she asked the question, "What would you have done?" Me being a permit holder I carry my gun EVERYWHERE I can. I feel naked and lost without it. When posed with the question it got me thinking what WOULD I do? So as I sometimes do I started replaying the story in my head as if I were in the IHOP. I am not exactly sure how it all went down but I am sure the AK-47 the gunman was using was in sight as he walked through the door so...I said "If I saw some goon walk into any public place with an assualt rifle I would immediately take him out." So she came back with "What if it is not a real gun?" I then said, "If any clown walks into a place with a fake AK-47 he needs to be dealt with."

Now of course you wouldn't want to be on the other end of a defensive shoot with a fake gun so how would you go about this scenario?

If you saw some guy walk into the IHOP where you and your family are enjoying a meal with what seems to be a real assualt weapon. He hasn't fired yet and seems to be looking for someone. What would you do and Why?

Engage and Dispatch immediately?

Maybe try to wrestle the gun away without drawing your own?

I am asking for my own personal knowlede because I like to be prepared for anything, anytime. Thanks for all replies and advice!

[aquajon]

Seeing someone carrying a weapon is not legal justification for the use of deadly force.

You could leave your gun holstered and challenge him, or wait to see what happens.

Me, I would wait till he fired shots and then take action.

[2theXtreme]

Seeing someone carrying a weapon is not legal justification for the use of deadly force.

You could leave your gun holstered and challenge him, or wait to see what happens.

Me, I would wait till he fired shots and then take action.

That's what I was affraid of. It isn't legal justification, but damn you don't want to have to wait until he kills somebody to take action.Then it is already too late. It is a tough spot to be in for sure. But I think I have to agree, as much as I don't want to, I'd have to wait. Wouldn't want to go to prison for the rest of my life...

[4x4twenty6]

I would say that if a gun is out of the holster and in a persons hands then their intent is to use it. They are a potential threat.

You want to really think of a ****ed up situation. A guy walks in with a gun out and yells "Help there is a gunman outside killing people with a rifle" a CC good samaritan gets up to assist. That guy then dispatches him and starts executing folks at will after taking out someone who could potentially stop him.

The point i am trying to make is that you never can be sure. You have to take in the totality of the circumstances. How is that person acting? Does he have that dead stare, crazed look in his eys? Is he dressed strangely? Is he talking to himself?

If you train yourself to pick out strange behavior it can help in identifying when a situation is about to go bad.

If you want examples of such instances that i have experienced i can elaborate.

[Failure2Stop]

The moment I believe that the person is a violent threat and is going to project that violence against those within my sphere of influence, he gets shot.
A bunch.

But there is both a wide gulf and hair's breadth between identifying a threat and engaging a threat. Time to observe, time to decide and time to prepare. Without that gap for thought, the target better already be involved in violent action to justify the force.

[2theXtreme]

I would say that if a gun is out of the holster and in a persons hands then their intent is to use it. They are a potential threat.

You want to really think of a ****ed up situation. A guy walks in with a gun out and yells "Help there is a gunman outside killing people with a rifle" a CC good samaritan gets up to assist. That guy then dispatches him and starts executing folks at will after taking out someone who could potentially stop him.

The point i am trying to make is that you never can be sure. You have to take in the totality of the circumstances. How is that person acting? Does he have that dead stare, crazed look in his eys? Is he dressed strangely? Is he talking to himself?

If you train yourself to pick out strange behavior it can help in identifying when a situation is about to go bad.

If you want examples of such instances that i have experienced i can elaborate.

I definitely see where you are coming from. It's impossible to be ready for everything. I'd just like to be as prepared as I can be for as many possible situations I can fit inside my helmet filler.

Did that story really happen or was that a hypothetical?

I would absolutely love examples if you are offering! Can't have enough tools for the tool box...

[B Cart]

In the recent IHOP situation, they said that the perp got out of his van and shot a guy on a motorcycle before he even entered the IHOP. This being the case, and had I been in the IHOP, I would have engaged him the second he opened the door into the IHOP if I could.

If that wasn’t the case, if I saw a person walking into a restaurant with an AK in his hands, I think I would challenge him with my gun out and at the low ready. If he made any moves like he was bringing it up, he would get 3 to the chest pretty quick.

There are so many scenarios that we could hash over saying what we would and wouldn’t do, but it just all comes down to having acute situational awareness and then making a hopefully good decision about the threat level. In this case, I don’t think normal people walk into a restaurant with an AK in hand, so I would immediately consider it to be a high threat level and try to get behind some cover so I could then engage from cover if needed.

[DireWulf]

I am sure you all have heard about the IHOP shooting of 7 people 3 of whom were Guardsmen in Carson City Nevada. After telling the girlfriend about the story she asked the question, "What would you have done?" Me being a permit holder I carry my gun EVERYWHERE I can. I feel naked and lost without it. When posed with the question it got me thinking what WOULD I do? So as I sometimes do I started replaying the story in my head as if I were in the IHOP. I am not exactly sure how it all went down but I am sure the AK-47 the gunman was using was in sight as he walked through the door so...I said "If I saw some goon walk into any public place with an assualt rifle I would immediately take him out." So she came back with "What if it is not a real gun?" I then said, "If any clown walks into a place with a fake AK-47 he needs to be dealt with."

Now of course you wouldn't want to be on the other end of a defensive shoot with a fake gun so how would you go about this scenario?

If you saw some guy walk into the IHOP where you and your family are enjoying a meal with what seems to be a real assualt weapon. He hasn't fired yet and seems to be looking for someone. What would you do and Why?

Engage and Dispatch immediately?

Maybe try to wrestle the gun away without drawing your own?

I am asking for my own personal knowlede because I like to be prepared for anything, anytime. Thanks for all replies and advice!

My first and foremost priority in the scenario you have painted is to get my family out of harm's way immediately by moving them with haste out of that building via the closest egress point (door or window). All other considerations are completely secondary until that has occurred. That said, there are a million "what ifs" that could occur during that movement. I might have to engage him while moving my family out because he raised the weapon toward myself or another and thereby caused me to believe that he was going to cause serious physical injury or death to me or another. I can't say exactly how that situation would play out for me. All I can tell you is that my first thoughts would be for the safety of my family in that scenario and getting out would be my top priority.

Let me share a story that occurred in my city (in Arizona) in the late 1990's. A 19 year old kid and his 20 year old friend decided it would be cool to exercise their right to carry a shotgun openly while walking down the street. So they walked three blocks down a busy road in broad daylight to a McDonald's. Each carrying a pistol grip Mossberg 12 gauge. They entered the McDonald's and walked up to the counter to place their orders. There were 11 people in the restaurant and six employees.

Not a single person said a word about the shotguns and their orders were placed, despite the fact that everyone interviewed later said that the guns scared them and made them nervous. One woman said: "I just figured they were robbing the place." Just as they were getting ready to pay for their order, an off duty federal agent walked into the McDonalds and saw the men with the guns. He drew from concealment, moved to cover and ordered the guns and them to the ground. One guy complied and the other argued. Later, the agent told officers that he was taking up the trigger slack on his Glock when the kid finally went to the ground and complied.

Officers arrived and detained the guys with the guns and got to the bottom of the situation. They had broken no laws and the McDonalds manager was not interested in filing a disorderly conduct complaint for the disruption of his business against them. He simply said: "Get them out of here before somebody really does get killed."

That incident is something I use to this day to train police recruits. I try to show them that sometimes things are not what they seem to be. I also show them the sheep mentality of the workers and the patrons and try to stress to them that anything you do can get you killed, including doing nothing.

If you find yourself in a situation like this, your first thoughts should go something like this:

1) Secure my family
2) Get to cover
3) Get help. Either call 911 yourself or have a family member call
4) Get involved if can do so from a safe position while still affording your family protection.
5) Exercise good weapons and muzzle discipline and do not have a drawn weapon conspicuously displayed if at all possible. Officers will be looking for people with guns and they will be on alert. Don't risk a friendly fire incident.

[2theXtreme]

In the recent IHOP situation, they said that the perp got out of his van and shot a guy on a motorcycle before he even entered the IHOP. This being the case, and had I been in the IHOP, I would have engaged him the second he opened the door into the IHOP if I could.

If that wasn’t the case, if I saw a person walking into a restaurant with an AK in his hands, I think I would challenge him with my gun out and at the low ready. If he made any moves like he was bringing it up, he would get 3 to the chest pretty quick.

There are so many scenarios that we could hash over saying what we would and wouldn’t do, but it just all comes down to having acute situational awareness and then making a hopefully good decision about the threat level. In this case, I don’t think normal people walk into a restaurant with an AK in hand, so I would immediately consider it to be a high threat level and try to get behind some cover so I could then engage from cover if needed.

There are countless scenarios but I just like getting others opinions and seeing what their justifications are for their actions. I have already learned a great deal from the responses so far...

[rickp]

The minute you saw the AK47 you could have challenged him even with your hand on your weapon and the second he raised his you could have initiated your draw.
Now at that point you could have just covered him at muzzle point or engaged him if he got a shot off. Either way the damage could have been stopped or at a minimum minimized.

If it happens to be a toy i really don't believe anyone would fault you for drawing and covering the threat to control the situation.

R.