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Thread: Current Need for a Forward Assist?

  1. #1
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    Current Need for a Forward Assist?

    Before I get into my question let me give some background information. I am a member of the military; I have been to a couple week long shooting courses so I’m not a complete noob at this. Yes, I know SPORTS is immediate action for a malfunction and I teach it to my soldiers because the army tells me to, but I do realize it is out dated.
    So I recently purchased a M&P 15 Sport, as most of us know this is a introduction rifle into the AR15 platform and it does not have a forward assist (Please note this is not a buyer’s remorse thread). While doing some research before I made my purchase I found this article http://www.defensereview.com/m4m4a1-...yre-our-fault/ by Mike Pannone. In the article the author states that he found replacing a few basic parts greatly increase the reliability of the M4.
    My question is, would make the prescribed upgrades of the heavier buffer, super duty buffer spring, five coil extractor spring, and o-ring mitigate(not necessarily eliminate) the lack of forward assist? Additionally, does the use of a forward assist only address the symptom of a bolt not closing in the case of a malfunction, and not address the root cause? A forward assist seems to only power jam the problem. I do understand the lack of a forward assist would make it more difficult to quietly close the bolt, but this is a non-issue for me. Please do not turn this into a xyz model of AR15 are crap, go spend more money on a expensive gun discussion.

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    Before making any changes to your rifle, make sure they are needed. Shoot your rifle. Get to know it. Then you'll know what, if any, needs upgrading. You may not need to change a thing.

    Welcome to M4Carbine and thank you for your service to our country
    Last edited by MistWolf; 11-19-11 at 07:43.
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    I think you are asking two different questions.

    First, do you need a forward assist? No, not really. The only use for this part is after doing a press check, to make sure the bolt is locked.

    Since there are better ways to do a press check, the forward assist is REALLY not needed IMHO.


    Your M&P is over gassed. It also has the lightest buffer available. So if it was my gun, I would install an H2 buffer and a Tactical SpringCo BLUE buffer spring. Then, after 3,000rds, I would change out the extractor spring, extractor insert and add a Crane O-Ring. BCM makes and excellent bolt upgrade kit.



    C4

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    If you tap the F/A on a round that is otherwise preventing the bolt from going fully into battery, it is likely that you will have a failure to extract after taking the shot. For this reason, you should just rack the charging handle and load a new round.

    The F/A makes itself most useful in extreme cold and snow. In most other cases, it's not going to do anything for you.

    As Grant said, people use the F/A to do admin loads, but there is a better way as he pointed out:

    After chambering a round, simply drop the magazine to ensure a round was loaded by looking at what side the top round is on...then re-insert the magazine. This is a more fail-safe way of doing an admin load.

    So, in summary, no I don't think you "need" a F/A

    I like having one for snow but that's about it:



    I don't think adding a heavier buffer / extra power spring will serve any meaningful purpose as it relates to the lack of a F/A, but it will help mitigate the negative effects of an overgassed rifle. So it's probably a good idea for you.
    Last edited by a0cake; 11-19-11 at 13:37.

  5. #5
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    There is another view on the forward assist which is worthy of consideration. In response to my question here on how he conducts a press check, Paul Howe responded:

    Submariner,

    I use my right hand to pull back on the charging handle to see/feel brass. If I want to feel, slide my left/non-firing hand around under the weapon and touch the case. I release and then palm strike my forward assist. Finally I close my dust cover with my non-firing hand. The reason I use my right hand on the charging handle is because it must come off the grip to use the forward assist after I do my brass check.

    I know the other technique used is to pull your magazine and then check to see that a round has stripped off. This came from using the MP-5 as best as I can tell. The problem I have with this technique is that you are unseating the life blood of your weapon. I see more problems with students not seating magazines correctly than forward assists breaking. I personally don't want them to pull the mag out once they put it in correctly.

    I also use this technique on an M-1 Carbine, Grand, M1A, AK, etc.

    Both systems work, I just prefer the way I teach.

    Paul
    Last edited by Submariner; 11-19-11 at 14:20.
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    Have and not need concerning the forward assist.

    I am usually against pulling the magazine in any circumstance except in reloads, tac reloads, malfunction clearing, or unloading and showing clear. A press check is a better way of seeing if a cartridge made it into the chamber instead of pulling the magazine. Murphy's law would dictate the one time you load 27 rounds into a magazine, chamber a round, and then check the magazine to see if a cartridge made it into the gun is the one time you need your rifle to go bang.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Dragger View Post
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    Beyond that everything else is a crap shoot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
    I think you are asking two different questions.

    First, do you need a forward assist? No, not really. The only use for this part is after doing a press check, to make sure the bolt is locked.

    Since there are better ways to do a press check, the forward assist is REALLY not needed IMHO.


    Your M&P is over gassed. It also has the lightest buffer available. So if it was my gun, I would install an H2 buffer and a Tactical SpringCo BLUE buffer spring. Then, after 3,000rds, I would change out the extractor spring, extractor insert and add a Crane O-Ring. BCM makes and excellent bolt upgrade kit.



    C4
    I did this exact thing to my M&P and it has slowed down noticeably and runs somewhat smoother. I personally did not change anything on the bolt, I just bought a complete BCM BCG. What Grant is recommending is VERY cost effective (You won't see any difference from buying the complete BCG). I highly recommend taking advice from him
    Last edited by Brennan; 11-20-11 at 08:18.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimdabew View Post
    Have and not need concerning the forward assist.

    I am usually against pulling the magazine in any circumstance except in reloads, tac reloads, malfunction clearing, or unloading and showing clear. A press check is a better way of seeing if a cartridge made it into the chamber instead of pulling the magazine. Murphy's law would dictate the one time you load 27 rounds into a magazine, chamber a round, and then check the magazine to see if a cartridge made it into the gun is the one time you need your rifle to go bang.
    I drop the magazine because not all AR based weapons that I carry have a F/A. Example, M110. It allows commonality across the board. It just makes sense to use the same method for every weapons system. Whether it's an M4, an M110, or an M14, dropping the mag to ensure a round was stripped will work. Press checking will not.

    Also, I've been using this method for years. The "one time" as you said that I needed my rifle to go bang has actually been hundreds of times, and Murphy has not one time had a say in it. I don't see how a person qualified to carry a weapon could possibly screw up looking at what side of a magazine a round is on, then re-inserting it until it fully seats.

    Much respect to Paul Howe and other accomplished instructors that teach the Press Check w/ FA method, but for the reason above I don't use it.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by a0cake View Post
    I drop the magazine because not all AR based weapons that I carry have a F/A. Example, M110. It allows commonality across the board. It just makes sense to use the same method for every weapons system. Whether it's an M4, an M110, or an M14, dropping the mag to ensure a round was stripped will work. Press checking will not.

    Also, I've been using this method for years. The "one time" as you said that I needed my rifle to go bang has actually been hundreds of times, and Murphy has not one time had a say in it. I don't see how a person qualified to carry a weapon could possibly screw up looking at what side of a magazine a round is on, then re-inserting it until it fully seats.

    Much respect to Paul Howe and other accomplished instructors that teach the Press Check w/ FA method, but for the reason above I don't use it.
    Different TTPs. At least you have a reason for doing what you do instead of parroting what other people say on the internet.
    Quote Originally Posted by Coal Dragger View Post
    Marines love CLP. Chow, libo, pussy.

    Beyond that everything else is a crap shoot.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by nimdabew View Post
    Murphy's law would dictate...
    I am just as worried about not closing the bolt all the way with the FA as forgetting the pull step of seating a mag. If I was going to do a press check I would close the bolt with my finger so I could feel the carrier go forward.

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