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Thread: Current Need for a Forward Assist?

  1. #11
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    Thanks for all the good advise, Ill do the upgrade.

  2. #12
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    For the AR/M4/M16 I teach both the press check and removing the magazine. I also use various methods with various weapons. I also shoot many different handguns, rifles etc and have several ways of doing things, so yes I am a bit different as far as the commonality thing goes, but there is definitely a lot to be said for commonality in general.

    Having said that as far as this platform I will just add an observation over many years of training many people. This is definitely user failure, however I see many more issues from those who use the magazine removal method, especially with those who like to completely top off a magazine, yes including Pmags. One shot, click and / or mag falls out. Again this is user error but this method does provide the opportunity for the shooter to eff themselves up. I see far far less issues with a press check and a tap of the forward assist. You really don't see failures to go into battery with this method, but if / when you do see an issue it is generally because someone pulls the charging handle too far to the rear ejecting the round or causing a hangup. However from my observations over many years, this is much less of an occurrence than the mag removal related method.

  3. #13
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    I prefer to press check myself and that's what I use on the AR. It's a direct verification of a loaded chamber and not dependent on memory work. Either the cartridge is in the chamber or it isn't.

    When pulling the mag, it requires memory work. Which side of the mag is the follower bump? Was this magazine loaded "odd" or "even"? Was this a partially loaded mag and how many shots were fired from it when I swapped it out?

    Not all weapons will tell you anything by pulling the mag. A visual check of single stack magazines, double stacks that taper to feed from the center and rotary magazines will not tell you if a round was stripped out.

    I do realize not all weapons are easy to press check. The roller locked HK comes to mind here and the FAL doesn't have a forward assist. It all comes down to personal preference and what weapon you're using
    Last edited by MistWolf; 11-20-11 at 16:26.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dfclin073 View Post
    Before I get into my question let me give some background information. I am a member of the military; I have been to a couple week long shooting courses so I’m not a complete noob at this. Yes, I know SPORTS is immediate action for a malfunction and I teach it to my soldiers because the army tells me to, but I do realize it is out dated.
    SPORTS is REMEDIAL action masquerading as IMMEDIATE action, made so by having to OBSERVE the breech.

    In truth, its a taint. It really taint a Tap-Rack-Bang which is the preferred immediate action and it taint a Rip Drill which is remedial action where you lock the bolt to the rear and remove the magazine to assist clearing the action of the stoppage.

    It is a way big Army gets out of teaching both TRB and the RD and how and when to use both. It is a mashed-up mess of half of both of the above dumbed-down for the lowest common demoniator.

    Mistwolf,

    Pulling a mag is a tactile thing that works well in the dark.

    Last thing I want to do with the action is monkey-**** around the ejection port feeling for brass and hoping I don't dick it up in the dark.
    Last edited by Heavy Metal; 11-20-11 at 18:22.
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  5. #15
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    Press checking will never go away. You may not have loaded the gun you pick up to use, or it may have been long enough ago that you used a specific AR to recall whether it's chambered or not.

    So far most responses are going off the notion that you've just immediately chambered a round to put the gun in action. In that instance I normally pull the mag and look at the orientation of the top round if I feel the need to do so.

    That said when I load the initial round into the chamber I can tell the difference in the feel in the two uppers I run primarily when the bolt goes forward on a magazine and strips a round forward. I have also gotten pretty good at feeling the difference in the recoil when the last round fires and the bolt stops back.

    But I don't really rely on the feel of the first round chambering. I do prefer to visually inspect the round positioning in the mag.

    Overall I would always want the option of a forward assist on my AR's.
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  6. #16
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    Better to have it.....

    Most of the schools I have been to since I left the military have left the use of the F/A out of training, and I understand what the thought process is on that. However, I like to be able to pull the bolt to the rear and actually see or physically touch a round that is chambered. I dont find it to be inconvenient, a waste of time or anything else that people seem to think it is - and to me it certainly is not unnecessary. I dont like the guesswork that goes with the other method primarily being discussed - especially when under stress. I dont know for sure that a round did not fall out of the mag, or that I accidentally loaded 29 instead of 30. I would rather just SEE or FEEL the round in the chamber. The forward assist helps with that process if I have been out shooting all day or I am in inclimate weather of some sort. I know and understand both ways of doing it, and personally just prefer the press check - I like having the F/A and wont have purchase a battle rifle with out it.

  7. #17
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    Wow. I hit the "QUOTE" button instead of "EDIT". There went went what little credibility I had left, right down the drain
    Last edited by MistWolf; 11-20-11 at 23:07.
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  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heavy Metal View Post
    Mistwolf,

    Pulling a mag is a tactile thing that works well in the dark.

    Last thing I want to do with the action is monkey-**** around the ejection port feeling for brass and hoping I don't dick it up in the dark.
    I'm aware of that and it's a very good point. I prefer a press check, but I know it's not always the best way to verify a loaded chamber
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  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Preliator View Post
    ...especially when under stress.
    Is this taught? I always viewed a press check/mag check as an admin process, not something I would ever do under stress.

  10. #20
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    Some of you (Mistwolf, Surf, and a few others) argued against doing the magazine drop using logic, so I can respect that. Single stack magazine weapons was a great point MW. I don't use any firearms that have single stack magazines, so it doesn't apply to me. If you do, and want to keep commonality, then a standard press check then F/A might be a good idea for you. For me, I routinely use firearms that you cannot or should not do a standard press check on (M110, M14, etc). So I drop the magazine across the board. Sometimes there is no "right answer." Looking at a colorful world through a black and white lens almost never leads to clear comprehension.


    HOWEVER....

    Some of these arguments against the magazine drop method are shit.

    - "Under stress?" We're talking about admin loads, not tactical reloads. Admin loads are done at the Line Of Departure, not when in contact (unless time / circumstances permit).

    - "What if there's 27, 28, or 29 rounds and I don't remember." It doesn't matter. Can you remember the difference between left and right? That's all that matters. There could be 234898 rounds in the magazine, and as long as the top round is now on the other side, you're good to go.

    - "What if a round falls out of the mag?" What?

    -"What if you don't correctly re-seat the magazine?" Counter - what if you forget to hit the F/A? Equally possible. I don't know any competent person who carries an AR for a living that doesn't give their magazine a good tug to ensure it's fully seated immediately after loading, and then subconsciously at various intervals as a matter of habit. I also don't know anyone who randomly taps their F/A. Think about it.
    Last edited by a0cake; 11-20-11 at 23:13.

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