"Backup" Rifles?

[shua713]

grant at gandrtactical.com has the colt sp 6920 for $945. that is a solid rifle for a great price. that is only $150 more then the shit rifles you are considering.

here is the link http://www.gandrtactical.com/cgi-bin...ction&key=6920

[murphman]

I would stick with the most simple rifle to operate for untrained members of your party which would be a bolt action rifle or a pump action shotgun. The simplicity of the operation of the action and loading will allow them to fire, reload and clear malfunctions quickly without pulling you from your duties else where to instruct them on the issue.

Not to sound cold but allowing people to drop in when a SHTF kicks off unprepared is a major liability and will wipe out your reserves quickly. I would select friends who can bring skills and resources to the group and not just be there to partake in your prep's. I would have strict rules of what is expected and who is in charge of the group and they must bring at least two weeks of food and water with them or entry will be denied.

Think of it this way if a person will not take responsibility for there own safety with proper stores and weapons during good times what do you think they will do when the SHTF and they are only thinking about their own survival. I don't need that kind of wild card in the deck as the event plays out.

I agreee with Phila on the easy to use bolt action rifle. I was at Academy a month ago and they had a mossberg bolt action rifle on clearance for 199$ in 25-06, 243, 270 & 30-06. I picked up a 270,30-06. Yes they are a cheap rifle that will not get much if any use through thier normal life other then zero in the sights but the way i look at it is they would easly serve there purpose in a SHTF situation for someone with limited firearm experience and it gives me 2 additional calibers to add to my guns that i did not already have for 400$ and they increase the defensive range I have around my bug in.

[PA PATRIOT]

The more I think about your pick-up group of untrained/unarmed persons I would like to withdraw my recommendation of a bolt action rifle/pump action shotgun and now recommend a single shot 12 gauge/.223 combo barrel firearm.

The single shot is the simplest action to operate and there is only one way to load and unload the gun. Anyone can use this action and the rifle or shotgun barrel option allows a simple swap of the barrel to cover the mission assigned to the member.

I remember seeing a $249.99 price tag on the below set.



http://www.rossiusa.com/product-deta...adcrumbseries=

Edited to add this single shot also comes in 7.62x39mm for those AK owners.

[MIKE G]

No matter how high speed you are you can not provide for a high level of security as the only gun slinger for even a small group. Having a gun for each member of your family that you EXPECT to be present should be a minimum. Then work on having an equal secondary of the same quality for each member. Then work on stocking up on guns that can be put into the hands of those that show up and you can trust.

You can say you would cut everyone off because they failed to prepare and you will be a very lonely and relatively small target able to put up nearly no resistance to bad guys. On the other hand, people show up that you trust and you have a little food and the ability to put a gun in their hands you now have staff. They earn their keep. 12 hour shifts on the perimeter, 6 days a week, with one day of other chores and training.

What about friends that did prep but preps were destroyed by whatever event kicked the problem off? Are you going to push them out in the cold because they were unlucky even though you helped each other with preps prior to event?

I would much rather have an extra BCM rifle, chest rig, mags, and case or two of ammo sitting in my gun room for a friend than $2500 sitting in a cookie jar should things go bad to the point where you were overtly protecting your homestead with a rifle. At that point the money is more of a historical item than a useful monetary tool.

[PA PATRIOT]

Mike G makes a point that there is safety in numbers which is true as long as the trust and commitment of party members remain over the entire duration of the event.

Mindset and life style prior to the event is a indicator on how potential party members will react once the SHTF as they are condition to a certain quality of life and once the life style is gone they can become unpredictable.

I personally see it as committed (Prep'ers) or uncommitted (Non-Prep'ers-Live for the moment) survival mindsets and I believe that the uncommitted will behavior as such and will eventually become a drain on resources and a liability to the party over time.

I would rather be able to feed four committed members for thirty days then twelve uncommitted for ten days and have to worry what happens on day eleven.

[Blstr88]

No matter how high speed you are you can not provide for a high level of security as the only gun slinger for even a small group. Having a gun for each member of your family that you EXPECT to be present should be a minimum. Then work on having an equal secondary of the same quality for each member. Then work on stocking up on guns that can be put into the hands of those that show up and you can trust.

You can say you would cut everyone off because they failed to prepare and you will be a very lonely and relatively small target able to put up nearly no resistance to bad guys. On the other hand, people show up that you trust and you have a little food and the ability to put a gun in their hands you now have staff. They earn their keep. 12 hour shifts on the perimeter, 6 days a week, with one day of other chores and training.

What about friends that did prep but preps were destroyed by whatever event kicked the problem off? Are you going to push them out in the cold because they were unlucky even though you helped each other with preps prior to event?

I would much rather have an extra BCM rifle, chest rig, mags, and case or two of ammo sitting in my gun room for a friend than $2500 sitting in a cookie jar should things go bad to the point where you were overtly protecting your homestead with a rifle. At that point the money is more of a historical item than a useful monetary tool.

Thanks Mike G, I think you said it best.

Im not saying I plan to feed and outfit every Joe that comes to my door...but I do have some family members I talk "prepping" with, and I know are making at least some effort to put away stores.

I do also think that I alone cant defend my home/neighborhood, and if I have 3-4 extra rifles I would be glad to hand them out to people I trust.

All great points made here though, and it does make more sense to buy 2 Colts versus 3 RRAs...I'm going to keep my eye out for a sub-$1000 Colt, DD, or even a S&W M&P15.

Plus, it's always fun putting another gun in the safe, regardless of "the end of the world"

[Just a Jarhead]

I've stated before that I'm of the mindset that it does me no good to be sitting on my 1 years worth of food for my wife and I trying to defend it myself. I would gladly open my doors to those whom I trusted but did not have nearly as much stored. Now I tend to agree that's different than someone who had the mindset of not storing anything. But even then those that didn't have the foresight to prepare, if I trust them, if they have 1 trigger finger and one good eye, you cannot defend your position alone. You're better off with them and rationing your food slimmer. If you have a gang of 20-100 coming (realistic to expect & plan for) at you the 2nd week, you're screwed alone or with just 1-2 others. What good did that years worth of food do you? And truth is we just don't know what we'll be trying to defend against. Prepare for the worst and you'll always be better off. They need you and you need them! Store extra food and count on it happening is my advice. Do it happily and willingly knowing it is in YOUR best interest to do so. Do it out of purely selfish reasons if nothing else. For some of you, my best guess is that your stubborness, "he ain't gettin none of mine", will end up killing some & their families.

You seasoned military guys, or those who have studied military history and tactics already know this, but for anyone who doesn't, for defending your house or your property, one of the best known defenses we learned was from the seige of Bastogne during WWII which was one of the most heroic efforst in U.S. Army history. The town & 101st Airborne were completely outnumbered and surrounded by the Germans. They should have fallen easily.

The U.S. Soldiers formed a defensive perimeter and kept what we call a "Quick Reactionary Force" (QRF) in the center. Extremely mobile and considered to be some of the best soldiers. The Germans perfomed enveloping attacks. When it was realized where the attack was focused, the QRF rushed to that position to aide. The Germans repeatedly believed they were attacking the strongest part of the perimeter and backed off to try another side. Repeat! Bastogne held and was critical in the failure of the Germans during the battle of the Bulge.

You can do the same at your position. A couple defenders say 2 in the southeast corner windows, 2 at the northwest, the QRF (another 2-3, or more if you have the man power) in the middle. Make the QRF your best trained, best shooters & the most levelheaded amongst you. Get your signals down and between that and rate of fire the QRF will know where to go. And if you have a neighboring house in close proximity with the same defense setup you're way much better. This way the enemy has to focus their attacks on more than 1 position. Your line of angles of fire and defenses just multiplied 10 fold. I live in your typical middleclass suburban development in south Florida. At this time this is my focus since I do not have any place to bug-out to although I continue to look. I have many strategies planned, (ADS) Area Denial Systems, aerial photos of my whole area etc etc, I continually scout my neighborhood and area thinking/planinng, but the QRF is the core of the plan along with a sniper position and NV. Even at a bug-out retreat the Perimiter QRF maybe your best defense. This and sandbags or other good cover at your fighting positions & you have a great chance to hold your position against overwhelming odds and live another day!

[PA PATRIOT]

I think that Just a JarHead and Mike G has valid points but the same question rises each time with larger then expected groups which wipe out smaller planned food/water stores in short order.

Will your group dissolve when the food/water runs out taking arms and ammunition as they leave?

Would you try to stop armed group members with force to remove your said firearms?

Will group members attack others in your group for the remaining supplies?

Or does your group go rouge and raid other camps stealing supplies and taking out people who are just trying to survive?

I would pray that a event would last less then six months and the military be able to restore some basic order or have supply camps able to feed and offer medical help for those in need.

But unless those hoped for relief camps become reality within the life of your stores one is truly better off with a set plan which covers the needs of the Expected group for a Set Period of Time to provide a sense of hope to group members knowing they can survive over the coming months. I think this hope would transform into dedication and willingness of the individual to make the group survive as long as possible.

So basically what I'M saying if your only planning for thirty days of food/water for two people don't take in and arm six people because unless your enlarged group is going rouge taking supplies by force from other surviving camps your group will be short lived and will fall apart when the food/water stores run out.

If you expect ten people in your group then store enough food and water for ten which lasts more then a few days. I would say 90 days is a minimum to keep members dedicated that your camp is in their best interest to risk their lives for protecting it over the long term. I think most would view a few days food supply as a eat and run stop over a extended SHTF event.

[uwe1]

If you are set on purchasing an AR15 type gun as a backup rifle, the S&W MP15 is the lowest I would go.

They can be had for under $800 nowadays. It's no BCM or DD, but they should run fine.

I have one that is my dedicated training gun. It has a BCM F/A carrier, the original S&W bolt, H2 buffer and has had one magazine related malfunction in ~4000 rounds. Over 2K of that has been with steel cased ammo. Is it my go to gun? No. But, I have 100% confidence in it.

OR....some people seem to really like the new PSA guns. I have no experience with them, but the specs look ok on paper.

[SIMBA-LEE]

This is one reason why SKSs and Mosin Nagants are so popular. "Loaners" to pass around, think force multiplier.

SKS is a great truck rifle & loaner. Low cost, reliable, uses inexpensive AK ammo, and you won't be heart broken if it gets stolen.