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AR Technical Discussion Dive into the details and specifications

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  #1  
Unread 06-13-10, 19:22
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Be an informed consumer!

Many of you have seen me write on this forum that Firearms Manufacturers are to be viewed the same way you would a used car salesman. "Trust, but verify."

The purpose of this thread is to help educate the consumer that is LOOKING to buy a high quality, DEFENSIVE weapon.

DISCLAIMER: If you are not interested in this type of weapon, this thread is not for you and don't bother reading it (or posting something silly about your Oly being the best).

Many firearm manufacturers use buzz words such as "Mil-Spec, Mil-Standard, Military Issued, TDP, 4150, CMV, MIL-11595E, HPT, MPI, Carpenter No. 158® steel, etc in an effort to get you to believe that their products are the best. Many of these companies believe that the words "Mil-Spec" actually means that their barrel’s, receiver’s, BCG's, lower’s, etc will fit on an M16 or M4. The term "Mil-Spec“ has nothing to do with quality or the TDP standard set forth by the US Govt for a fighting weapon.

Here are some cold hard facts:

1. The only way to get a TRULY Mil-Spec weapon is to be issued it by the US Military.
2. The current two companies with the OFFICIAL TDP (Technical Data Package) are Colt and FN.
3. Mil-Spec means the LOWEST acceptable quality the US Govt will accept for a fighting gun.
4. If a company cannot meet the lowest of standards (Mil-Spec/TDP), then what standards are they following (if any)?

For the purpose of this thread, we are going to stick to the two main components that always cause the most confusion with the consumer. These are the barrel and the bolt.

Barrel's:

Per MIL-B-11595E, barrels have to be made out of the following in order to comply with this standard AND have the correct chemical compounds. IF the barrel’s do not meet this standard, they will not meet the mil-standard MPI acceptance criteria! Below are the three types of steel (and their chemical compositions) that are allowed.



Then the barrels have to meet the following things:

• Chrome Lined Bore and Chamber
• Manganese Phosphate Barrel Finish on entire barrel
• HPT (High Pressure Test, per Milspec) barrel’s
• MPI (Magnetic Particle Inspected, per Milspec) barrel’s
• USGI 5.56mm NATO Chamber

Two of the big ones in the above list are HPT and MPI. In order to stress the barrel, you must use a high pressure load (referred to as an M197). Once this is completed, the barrel then must undergo MPI AND comply with acceptance and exclusion criteria from both the mil-standard and ASTME1444-01 standard and completed by a certified NDT facility.


Bolt's:

Per the TDP, bolts are to comply with the following:

• Bolt machined from Mil-Spec Carpenter No. 158® steel
• HPT Bolt (High Pressure Tested/ Proof)
• MPI Bolt (Magnetic Particle Inspected)
• Shot Peened Bolt (per Mil-S-13165)
• Heat Treated


Now that we have all the correct names and standards called out, you need to see some examples of what the documentation needs to look like. Luckily for us, BCM has stepped up to the plate and become the FIRST Manufacturer to post their certs for their barrel steel, pressure loads, and MPI.

To get the full discussion on BCM rifles and all that goes into them, follow this link: http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=55930


Below is what the cert looks like for INDEPENTLY certified barrel steel (notice the date on the steel cert and that it specifically lists all the chemical compounds):




Below is what the cert looks like for proof loads:




Below is what the cert for MPI looks like (notice the date):






As you may have figured out by now, a lot of work goes into all of this. It is not an easy or cheap process and any manufacturer that goes through all the hassle of putting a program together like this is going to shout it from the rooftops because it clearly sets them apart from the competition. A manufacturer also cannot do all of the above and sell a barrel and bolt for a low price. So if it looks to good to be true, then it probably is.

Know what you are buying and what you are getting! YOU the consumer have the right to ask a manufacturer to provide proof to back up their claims!


C4

Last edited by C4IGrant; 06-13-10 at 21:03
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  #2  
Unread 06-13-10, 20:02
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Thank you for the info, Grant. This thread, and the other one Paul made the other day, are both a big help.

I have a buddy at work who is about to buy his first AR. I'm steering him to Noveske and BCM, and info like this is quite helpful for him to reach a decision.

I did mention you would happily sell him one of each.
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Unread 06-13-10, 20:04
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sticky worthy?
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Unread 06-13-10, 20:07
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Originally Posted by theblackknight View Post
sticky worthy?
Yep good info always is! Done!
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Unread 06-13-10, 22:04
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
Snip...

Here are some cold hard facts:

1. The only way to get a TRULY Mil-Spec weapon is to be issued it by the US Military.
2. The current two companies with the OFFICIAL TDP (Technical Data Package) are Colt and FN.
3. Mil-Spec means that LOWEST acceptable quality the US Govt will accept for a fighting gun.
4. If a company cannot meet the lowest of standards (Mil-Spec/TDP), what standards are they following (if any)?

C4
Wouldn't mil-spec be better described as the MINIMUM standard than lowest acceptable quality?
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Unread 06-13-10, 22:22
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O
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Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
Wouldn't mil-spec be better described as the MINIMUM standard than lowest acceptable quality?
And the difference is? Glass half full half empty means the same thing.
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Last edited by Robb Jensen; 06-13-10 at 22:25
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  #7  
Unread 06-13-10, 22:39
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Should be required reading. Thanks for the info Grant!
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Unread 06-14-10, 01:22
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Very insightful and instructive, thanks.
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  #9  
Unread 06-14-10, 09:19
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Thank you for the feedback and hope that some will get something out of it.



C4
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Unread 06-16-10, 09:20
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Originally Posted by gotm4 View Post
O

And the difference is? Glass half full half empty means the same thing.
I actually agree with him. I'm not one for semantic arguments but "minimum standard" is a better choice of words.
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Unread 06-13-10, 22:25
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Thanks Grant. Good info. Going to add it to my "Favorites List"
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Last edited by shadow65; 06-13-10 at 22:25
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Unread 09-08-10, 21:02
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MK18Pilot View Post
Wouldn't mil-spec be better described as the MINIMUM standard than lowest acceptable quality?
I thought that mil-spec meant the LOWEST acceptable quality from the lowest bidding company that the US Govt will accept for a fighting gun.
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  #13  
Unread 09-09-10, 02:42
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guys i want to apologize for my comments. i was and am misinformed and the lack of me being able to put into words what im thinking makes me look and feel like an ass. i apologize to who i offended, and to grant for making ASSumptions.

Last edited by fivefivesix; 09-15-10 at 13:51
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Unread 09-09-10, 06:57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fivefivesix View Post
it sounds like someone is getting kickbacks from bcm. yeah there a great company but so is spikes
This thread is about BCM rifles and the importance of knowing what you're buying, ie, being an informed consumer. It is not a Spike's gripe thread. This has been discussed time and time again on this forum, and that discussion is over. Go and read the thread on it, and if you are unhappy with the results of that discussion you may contact the individual in question via private message.

It's people like you who have given Spike's a bad reputation to some on this forum. Please be constructive or go somewhere else.
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  #15  
Unread 09-09-10, 07:56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I thought that mil-spec meant the LOWEST acceptable quality from the lowest bidding company that the US Govt will accept for a fighting gun.
You are missing the point.
For something to be accepted by the military it has to pass quality control inspections and tests. That requirement is not present with businesses that market directly to the civilian market, unless they choose to. The companies that are recommended are those that impose a higher standard on themselves, and it shows through performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fivefivesix View Post
it sounds like someone is getting kickbacks from bcm. yeah there a great company but so is spikes
If you are alledging that every reputable instructor, every moderator, every Indusry Professional and SME, and every high-volume shooter are shills for BCM, you need to reflect on the plausability of that accusation.

We also recommend Noveske, KAC, Colt, and others. We let people know what we see and can prove. If you think that a company/product is equal to or better than what we recommend, please step forward with your proof. We have no interest in closing businesses down, we have no grudge, we simply recommend that which works consistently to our standards. Not everyone has our standards or breadth of data, which is why there are lots of people that are completely satisfied with their Olys/BMs/DPMSs/etc.

Being a site sponsor does not save the company from criticism either. There are plenty of threads about EoTech, POF, Wilson, Lancer, etc in which Staff and Mods will recommend different products or criticize oferings from those companies. You want to know why? Because we aren't whores. We want to share our knowledge and experience with the community. We don't get paid. All we get is some miniscule amount of satisfaction and lots of angry PMs.

So take your accusations and shove them up your nose.
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  #16  
Unread 04-10-11, 13:59
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Originally Posted by Failure2Stop View Post
The companies that are recommended are those that impose a higher standard on themselves, and it shows through performance.
The real issue here isn't technical. Some people simply refuse to believe that the time and effort people like Paul at Bravo Co. put into their product will ever manifest itself. We can talk about performance all day long and they'll just rationalize or stick fingers in their ears.
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  #17  
Unread 09-09-10, 11:32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fivefivesix View Post
it sounds like someone is getting kickbacks from bcm. yeah there a great company but so is spikes
Please let me know who that someone is. I know it isn't us and to insinuate that Paul (owner of BCM) would do such a thing, tells me that your village is looking for you.



C4
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  #18  
Unread 09-09-10, 19:31
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how do i give spikes a bad name. i own a spikes m4 and a bcm m16 clone. and if you call any manufacture that is worth a grain of salt they will produce so called tech documents. guess i pissed the fan boys off
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  #19  
Unread 09-09-10, 19:39
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Originally Posted by C4IGrant View Post
Please let me know who that someone is. I know it isn't us and to insinuate that Paul (owner of BCM) would do such a thing, tells me that your village is looking for you.



C4
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  #20  
Unread 09-09-10, 08:03
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Originally Posted by Wherryj View Post
I thought that mil-spec meant the LOWEST acceptable quality from the lowest bidding company that the US Govt will accept for a fighting gun.
Correct.

It means the lowest bidder who can maintain the minimum QUALITY in the Technical Data Package set forth by the US Military. The TDP is the "minimum" specifications they will accept. The requirement will state "Meet or exceed" a certain specification.
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Last edited by RogerinTPA; 09-09-10 at 08:07
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