You get what you pay for? (What separates the aimpoints/eotechs from other optics?

[jncryer]

Ok, a couple things to get out of the way:

I'm new here, and new to the AR/tactical world.
I've done some looking into Aimpoint and Eotech sites and I understand the differences/benefits/drawbacks to them both.
I'm a father of 3 and full-time student (read $$$uper tight budget), concerned with home defense and "SHTF".

I like the Aimpoint's "forever" batteries, but like the EOTech's 65/1 MOA Reticle relative simplicity of EO's setup (you dont seem to need to get the mounts separately, etc...)

My question is this: with the EOTech and Aimpoint models I'm considering both being over $450-$500, whats to keep me from getting a Vortex SPARC for $200? (I see plenty of stuff on Aimpoint, Eotech, but almost nothing on SPARC... Opticsworld.com seems to think highly of the SPARC, but I havent seen much from consumers on what they think.)

Besides "AIMPOINT IS AWESOME!" or "EOTECH RULES", or "EVERYTHING ELSE SUCKS", what separates the EOTECH/Aimpoint and the Vortex SPARC?

[Shiz]

I have seen some pretty good reviews on the Sparc. I don't know that the average SHTF prepper would need something pro grade like the two biggies.

The only justification for me to shell out all that would be the aimpoint battery life, and dependability, in SHTF, you have to be able to depend on your weapon with your life.

I understand the Sparc is very reliable too. I think the Sparc would be ideal. Plus it comes with the great warranty.

[TOrrock]

So, if you buy something for "SHTF" that's got a great warranty, and it shits the bed, will that great warranty help you out then?

Here's the deal, you absolutely do get what you pay for. The lesser quality clone optics will not hold up to the conditions that a military grade optic will. I'm 99% certain that even the Vortex guys say that their stuff is not meant for duty.

If you're running on a super tight budget, and brother, I do understand what that means, then run your irons, and start an Aimpoint or Eotech jar, putting a couple bucks in it when you can, and pretty soon, you'll have the money that you need for a professional grade optic.

If you can afford a $200 optic, you're about half way there to the real deal.

Also, look at buying a good condition used one from a reputable member (I'd avoid places like Ebay because of all the Chicom airsoft clones). Aimpoint just released their Patrol Optic, which comes with a useable mount, and should be about $440 or so total.

If you're buying an optic, or a weapon, that you even slightly think might be pressed into service for defense of yourself or your family, then you need the best that you can get. If that means scrimping and saving for a while, and running irons, then that's what it means, and you'll be a better shooter for it at the end of the day.

[Rmplstlskn]

Let me share my story (lesson learned) on "making do" with CLONE optics...

I just did an INEXPENSIVE RDS (red dot sight) option for my wife's carbine (until $$$ allows a better option), so I will share my experience...

I first bought a TruGlo Open Red Dot Sight for $99, mounted it on her 14.5" middy-gas AR15 carbine, and went to the range to sight it in... This one resembled slightly a Trijicon Reflex...


I liked the holographic sight options and that the BUIS (back up iron sights) could be used easily, but I did not like that the dot was right where the fixed base front sight was and I found it distracting. A riser would help but then it would be a BUIS use issue... But it didn't matter... that TruGlo sight was all over the paper and would NOT hold a zero. I determined it to be a inside defect, not a mount and use issue. So back from the range I went to my local black rifle shop for a refund... They offered to replace it but I had now lost trust in it (for a $99 optics and all ops

So I swapped it for a Aimpoint Micro clone made by KONUS... It was more $$$ at $120...


This RDS had a nice clear, well-defined dot and had good feedback as a decent cheap RDS option (like the PWS), but on an AR platform, a RISER is a MUST, just like an Aimpoint Micro needs a riser. I bought a 3-slot, 1" UTG riser off ebay for $11 and mounted it. This now put the red dot where an Aimpoint would put it (red dot above front sight) but due to the design of the red dot emitter inside the sight (block on bottom), this emitter would be in the way of a BUIS in use, making the BUIS about useless unless the RDS was removed. But if you buy a 5/8" riser then the red dot wil be back on top of the front sight post, and again, a distraction for me...

But for an RDS, this KONUS seems to be a nice option. It "seems" well made and feels tight and secure. The battery life is nowhere near that of an Aimpoint, by multiples of times, but what does one want from a $120 RDS? So I kept it and the UTG mount (seems well made as well) has a butterfly lockdown so it can be removed quickly if needed, allowing BUIS use.

Since this is NOT a primary weapon, I think it will suffice until a Aimpoint Comp-M3 comes along... But if I had the money back and could do it all over again, I would have put that $$$ WASTED on an RDS that just sorta works out into a fund for a REAL RDS that would have fit the bill in all areas... My lesson learned with cheap RDS's...

Rmpl

[Jellybean]

You get what you pay for? What separates the aimpoints/eotechs from other optics?

In short, quality.
I'm probably the least qualified person to answer this, so I may be 'stepping out of my lane' a bit. But I went through a similar experience that may help.

About a year ago I just had to have a red dot for my AR. But after looking around, I realized I "couldn't" afford a 4-700 dollar sight.
So I went to a gunshow to see if I could find any better deals. Big mistake... I saw an array of "Acog" "Eotech" and "Aimpoint"-style sights for prices vastly cheaper than anywhere else. They looked like the real thing. They felt like the real thing. They even functioned like the real thing. At the time I was looking for an Eotech, and I thought why not? So I went home looked on Ebay, and found one for "only" 75 bucks. What a steal!
About a week later it arrived, and I mounted it on my rifle. Everything seemed fine, until I took it out to zero. Long story short, it wouldn't. The cheapass 'made in Chrapland' adjustment screws just slipped when you turned them. And suddenly, 400 bucks for a REAL Eotech seemed rather cheap....
I re-sold it as a prop for only $45. Then went and bought the real thing. Trust me- you can literally see and feel the difference.

Now, I can't speak for the sight you're looking at. And apparently Vortex does make some other good stuff.
But like Templar said- you're already a third to half of the way there.
Buy once, cry once, save money.

Dagnabbit! Beat to it again!

[neo9710]

Originally Posted by Templar

So, if you buy something for "SHTF" that's got a great warranty, and it shits the bed, will that great warranty help you out then?

Here's the deal, you absolutely do get what you pay for. The lesser quality clone optics will not hold up to the conditions that a military grade optic will. I'm 99% certain that even the Vortex guys say that their stuff is not meant for duty.

If you're running on a super tight budget, and brother, I do understand what that means, then run your irons, and start an Aimpoint or Eotech jar, putting a couple bucks in it when you can, and pretty soon, you'll have the money that you need for a professional grade optic.

If you can afford a $200 optic, you're about half way there to the real deal.

Also, look at buying a good condition used one from a reputable member (I'd avoid places like Ebay because of all the Chicom airsoft clones). Aimpoint just released their Patrol Optic, which comes with a useable mount, and should be about $440 or so total.

If you're buying an optic, or a weapon, that you even slightly think might be pressed into service for defense of yourself or your family, then you need the best that you can get. If that means scrimping and saving for a while, and running irons, then that's what it means, and you'll be a better shooter for it at the end of the day.

I couldn't agree more. It sucks to hear that your going to have to spend $$$ but it is what it is. It all comes back to quality. Cheaper things just plain don't last and aren't dependable. I shoot my rifles quite frequently. Im spending the money to ensure when I hit that power button it comes on and stays on! I don't want to have to worry about it giving on me in say...6 months...or a year. Most of the cheap optics/red dot just wont hold a zero either at all or in the long run. Your rifle is a precision tool. Why settle for something that wont let you use it that way? I don't want to have to worry if my rifle is zero'd or not..
Grab that ol kiddies piggy bank..start dumping all your change in it..two less sodas a day..and buy the optic you really want.

[sjc3081]

I have a used 512 A65 on a Larue mount I will sell you for 260 shipped. The hood is dinged up but it is 100% functional and the glass is prefect.

[zk556x45]

Originally Posted by Templar

If you're running on a super tight budget, and brother, I do understand what that means, then run your irons, and start an Aimpoint or Eotech jar, putting a couple bucks in it when you can, and pretty soon, you'll have the money that you need for a professional grade optic.

This is the best advice you're going to get.

zk

[LowSpeed_HighDrag]

I pay big bucks for the battery life and quality of build. My Aimpoint M4 has a battery life of 8 years....on an AA battery, my H1 has 5 years. They are built like tanks. Simple as that for me.

[Cylinder Head]

I've turned my Aimpoint CompM3 off once. To change the battery. In three years.

[usmcvet]

Originally Posted by Templar

So, if you buy something for "SHTF" that's got a great warranty, and it shits the bed, will that great warranty help you out then?

Here's the deal, you absolutely do get what you pay for. The lesser quality clone optics will not hold up to the conditions that a military grade optic will. I'm 99% certain that even the Vortex guys say that their stuff is not meant for duty.

If you're running on a super tight budget, and brother, I do understand what that means, then run your irons, and start an Aimpoint or Eotech jar, putting a couple bucks in it when you can, and pretty soon, you'll have the money that you need for a professional grade optic.

If you can afford a $200 optic, you're about half way there to the real deal.

Also, look at buying a good condition used one from a reputable member (I'd avoid places like Ebay because of all the Chicom airsoft clones). Aimpoint just released their Patrol Optic, which comes with a useable mount, and should be about $440 or so total.

If you're buying an optic, or a weapon, that you even slightly think might be pressed into service for defense of yourself or your family, then you need the best that you can get. If that means scrimping and saving for a while, and running irons, then that's what it means, and you'll be a better shooter for it at the end of the day.

Templar hit this one out of the park. Listen to the words of wisdom. You'd be better off saving for a while. I have three kids and lots of bills too. I've had to sell some toys to meet my responsibilities. The EE here is an Outstanding place to buy high quality and most often lightly used gear at sale prices.

I would save a while and buy an Aimpoint. It wil last and it will work when/if you need it.

Check it out:

http://m4carbine.net/forumdisplay.php?f=120

[TOrrock]

Originally Posted by Templar

So, if you buy something for "SHTF" that's got a great warranty, and it shits the bed, will that great warranty help you out then?

Here's the deal, you absolutely do get what you pay for. The lesser quality clone optics will not hold up to the conditions that a military grade optic will. I'm 99% certain that even the Vortex guys say that their stuff is not meant for duty.

If you're running on a super tight budget, and brother, I do understand what that means, then run your irons, and start an Aimpoint or Eotech jar, putting a couple bucks in it when you can, and pretty soon, you'll have the money that you need for a professional grade optic.

If you can afford a $200 optic, you're about half way there to the real deal.

Also, look at buying a good condition used one from a reputable member (I'd avoid places like Ebay because of all the Chicom airsoft clones). Aimpoint just released their Patrol Optic, which comes with a useable mount, and should be about $440 or so total.

If you're buying an optic, or a weapon, that you even slightly think might be pressed into service for defense of yourself or your family, then you need the best that you can get. If that means scrimping and saving for a while, and running irons, then that's what it means, and you'll be a better shooter for it at the end of the day.

I guess I'll have to quote myself.

[Tigereye]

Buy the Aimpoint PRO. It seems to be a M3 with a mount. I learned a hard lesson buying binoculars a few years ago. Rather than spend $250 for the ones I wanted I bought an $85 pair. They fogged bad so I bought a $120 pair that also fogged a lot. I finally bought the ones I originally wanted 3 years later for $280 and have a great pair of binoculars. I spent a total of $485. Because of this, I did what Templar suggested to you and save money to buy the Eotech. I've now saved the money and recently bought the Aimpoint PRO. I think the PRO is the best deal going.

[warpigM-4]

Originally Posted by Tigereye

Buy the Aimpoint PRO. It seems to be a M3 with a mount. I learned a hard lesson buying binoculars a few years ago. Rather than spend $250 for the ones I wanted I bought an $85 pair. They fogged bad so I bought a $120 pair that also fogged a lot. I finally bought the ones I originally wanted 3 years later for $280 and have a great pair of binoculars. I spent a total of $485. Because of this, I did what Templar suggested to you and save money to buy the Eotech. I've now saved the money and recently bought the Aimpoint PRO. I think the PRO is the best deal going.

I agree i just got a Aimpoint PRO and sighted it in today ,A great RDS at a great price !!

[Belmont31R]

I've seen "bargain" RDS's fail within 50 rds.





Be honest with yourself though. This is a professional oriented site...meaning people generally are here for guns they use for duty, home defense, training, mil, and not your average guy who shoots dirt clods for fun.



If all you are is a dirt clod shooter, and no intentions of this being a serious use gun (duty or what you grab when you hear glass breaking at 2AM) then just get whatever.


If you want an optic you can rely on to get you through serious duty/combat/AND stake your life on when you get that thud at o dark thirty then get a real top grade optic not whats cheap from china.



If funds are tight save what you can...look for used stuff, too. I just sold a Aimpoint T1 in near new condition with Larue mount on here for 525 when they are 650 from LaRue.


Look for some useless shit around your house to sell. Most people have thousands of dollars tied up into junk sitting around their house.

[TehLlama]

Think about and analyze what exactly a holographic optic is - a collection of glass, electronics, and lithium batteries attached to a firearm. By their very nature, they can have many different failure points, especially when exposed to temperature extremes, high G loading, and especially operator error. Even things like the batteries themselves failing causes huge issues (see EOTech XPS), the contacts blipping under the shock of firing has caused numerous issues; small issues like a turret allowing a zero to drift, and then there's the whole litany of stupid user tricks like leaving optics on, cranking away on rheostats, etc.

I have pretty extensive experience with chinese made optics (on airsoft stuff primarily), and for doing everything but actually firing centerfire rifles, the stuff actually performs. Sure, the battery life is atrocious, the glass quality is mediocre, but hell, they look cool on internet forums. The better ones even hold their own on .22 rifles (though some will start to noticeably drift zero). Thanks kindly, but there's a reason I have 7 Aimpoints now.

I'm quite certain that the military would loooooove to use cheaper optics, but even they realized they couldn't afford to keep swapping out the ones that go TU.

[usmcvet]

Originally Posted by Belmont31R

If funds are tight save what you can...look for used stuff, too. I just sold a Aimpoint T1 in near new condition with Larue mount on here for 525 when they are 650 from LaRue.


Look for some useless shit around your house to sell. Most people have thousands of dollars tied up into junk sitting around their house.

I bought my first Aimpoint, an M3, from Belmont! It is still kicking strong and the price was around $400 with the LaRue mount.

[LMTRocks]

FWIW, I have a Vortex Strikefire on my 9mm Beretta CX4 and it's held zero perfectly since I got it. It's a 4moa model with R/G dots and rides in the 30mm low mount. I picked it up on a group buy for $125 shipped. Down side---it shuts off after 4 or 8 hours if I remember correctly.

Keep looking hard for the Aimpoints. I picked up my Comp M2 from Sportsmans Whse last year when they were $319....it rides in a Larue LT-129 on my 6.8 12" SBR.

If you read the other thread in this subforum about Ancient Aimpoints you'll see I have a AP2k that I picked up for $25 a couple years ago just as a plinking sight. I'm glad I did because I recently took it out on my 10.5" 7.62x39 SBR upper and zeroed it and it worked perfectly. It runs on a CR123 battery of which I have dozens and the dot is clear. It will not turn off unless I tell it to and I'm just keeping it turned on jus to see how long it'll go. I have a feeling it will be in the thousands of hours before I'm complete. I do not recommend it as a SHTF optic as the tube is smaller (1" mount needed) but with BEO technique it works fine. My 10.5" x39 gun is a cheap blaster anyway but runs extremely well. Good luck saving up for your new optic. You'll be glad you got an Aimpoint

[Texagator]

Originally Posted by Belmont31R

I've seen "bargain" RDS's fail within 50 rds.

Be honest with yourself though. This is a professional oriented site...meaning people generally are here for guns they use for duty, home defense, training, mil, and not your average guy who shoots dirt clods for fun.

If all you are is a dirt clod shooter, and no intentions of this being a serious use gun (duty or what you grab when you hear glass breaking at 2AM) then just get whatever.

If you want an optic you can rely on to get you through serious duty/combat/AND stake your life on when you get that thud at o dark thirty then get a real top grade optic not whats cheap from china.

If funds are tight save what you can...look for used stuff, too. I just sold a Aimpoint T1 in near new condition with Larue mount on here for 525 when they are 650 from LaRue.

Look for some useless shit around your house to sell. Most people have thousands of dollars tied up into junk sitting around their house.

All of these are great and valid points. You need to be honest with yourself about the "what" and "why" of your purchase. For example, I have a cheap Primary Arms RDS (clone of an Aimpint micro) on my AK-47 that I use for hogs or just playing. On my duty rifle, I use the best optics I can. If the lives of others are at stake, then buy the highest quality you can for the realistic demands of your mission. That applies to almost any weapon or sighting system.

FWIW, as much as I like the EOTech reticle, and as much as I have tried to give EOTech an honest chance, I'm going back to Aimpoint. I used an EOTech on my competition rifle and it died on me at the last stage of the Texas State 3-Gun Match. I ran an Aimpoint on my SWAT rifle for 7 years and it never failed me...ever. I have another EOTech that is getting "fuzzy" and which has the standard, issued-at-the-factory problem with the battery compartment. We just finished running over 100 patrol rifle officers through their annual refresher training and...sure enough....had 2 new EOTechs start giving us trouble. No trouble with Aimpoints.

Templar and Belmont31R gave some great advice in this thread. Based on my own professional, real-world experience, I strongly recommend that if you need a RDS it for life-saving, get an Aimpoint. Take care and good luck with your decision.

[User Name]

Eotech is apparently working hard to improve battery life.