"XDM superior to both", was "why I shoot M&P"

[Mjolnir]

Originally Posted by Son of Vlad Tepes

I hate to beat a dead horse, but if a marginal grip can result in a premature slide lock, or prevents the slide from cycling normally, then a gun with that unfortunate design characteristic is a non starter as a serious use weapon, full stop.

That's my take on it. Administrative Gunhandling failures due to improper grip makes it a non-starter as I may have just been knocked10 feet and incapable of acquiring said grip. Glocks and M&Ps work fine in that price range - or have less significant issues FOR ME.

[dfclin073]

As I read through this thread I noticed most of the likes or dislikes regarding the XD fall into three categories, personal preference (I don't like the such and such feature), speculation (If its not used by pros or in training class, it must be inferior), and hearsay(I read or I heard that an XD blew-up). Aside from the Striker Retaining pin, which is a $10 upgrade can anyone provide some empirical data on XD issues? I'm not a die hard XD fan but I think most of the bad publicity is Internet rumour.

[Packman73]

Originally Posted by dfclin073

As I read through this thread I noticed most of the likes or dislikes regarding the XD fall into three categories, personal preference (I don't like the such and such feature), speculation (If its not used by pros or in training class, it must be inferior), and hearsay(I read or I heard that an XD blew-up). Aside from the Striker Retaining pin, which is a $10 upgrade can anyone provide some empirical data on XD issues? I'm not a die hard XD fan but I think most of the bad publicity is Internet rumour.

No; no one can at this point.
You hit the nail on the head with your post though.

[TN-popo]

Originally Posted by dfclin073

As I read through this thread I noticed most of the likes or dislikes regarding the XD fall into three categories, personal preference (I don't like the such and such feature), speculation (If its not used by pros or in training class, it must be inferior), and hearsay(I read or I heard that an XD blew-up). Aside from the Striker Retaining pin, which is a $10 upgrade can anyone provide some empirical data on XD issues? I'm not a die hard XD fan but I think most of the bad publicity is Internet rumour.

Originally Posted by PackerfanXD

No; no one can at this point.
You hit the nail on the head with your post though.

Post #22 was not all preference, speculation, and hearsay...reread.

[Packman73]

Originally Posted by TN-popo

Post #22 was not all preference, speculation, and hearsay...reread.

And I (and several thousand others) have had the opposite experience. Some people think it's the greatest trigger out of the box and some people hate it -preference.
Placement of the slide stop lever? C'mon man! You said yourself it was a training issue. Keep your thumbs pointed at the target and that won't happen (and your groups may improve)..
I can't recall ever cleaning the mag release on my XDs other than a drop of lube once in a great while. I never had a problem. I can't recall ever hearing of such an issue being a member of XDtalk for seven years. Nor have I ever had magazine issues in my 2 XD45s or heard of such an issue.
So rock on with what you like; more XDs for me...

[MaximumPenetration]

Originally Posted by AKDoug

In reality it doesn't really matter. Every XD or XDm thread around here arrives at the same place and most threads are then locked.

* The XD line is not issued to any large force, but neither are the well respected Walther PPS and PPQ. There are issued pistols to police forces and armies that have well documented failures and more complicated manual of arms. We still issue the M9 to U.S. forces when a Glock is a better proven performer for most.

* The XD line fails at a higher rate than other comparable polymer framed pistols, yet there is no document anywhere than anyone can find that proves this. On the flip side, since no major agency wants any part of the XD line and Springfield seems to be satisfied with it's civilian market share, it's doubtful anything ever will be studied and published. We are stuck with non-scientific arguments from both side on the subject.

* Shoot what you want. If you need internet confirmation about your choices there is likely a site that will support you. There are even well known top shooters that are rocking the XDm line if it makes you feel better. The important thing is to become intimate with the weapon of your choice. Shoot it a bunch and form your own opinions.

I happen to shoot a polymer framed handgun that now has 5000+ trouble free rounds through it. It's survived 800 rounds without cleaning during a Redback One class and will be heading back to another Redback One class in May. I just happen to wish that my primary HD weapon (M4 carbine style) will be as reliable, but I doubt it will go 5000 rounds without a single failure of any type. I'm still packing a bolt and firing pin for it.

I'll see you at that class Doug. I'm going to bring my Sig P226 9mm. I can't wait for that class.

[AKDoug]

Sounds good. It's going to be my second class with the same XDm. All this friggin snow really put a damper on my practice time this winter. Going to really hit it this month before the class.

[chuckman]

I had a XDm in .40 for a while and got rid of it. Nothing wrong with it, just wanted something different. I did find the following quote by Pat McNamara interesting:
"I train regularly with a P2000, P226, M-9, G17, XDm and 1911."

I guess why it's never gained real traction may be forever debated, I suppose some find it worthy enough.

[dfclin073]

Originally Posted by TN-popo

I was issued an XD45 for awhile and owned an XD9 for awhile.
I've also been to the armorer's class.

For me, I don't like them primarily for two reasons...
1. The trigger reset sucks.
2. The placement of the slide stop lever. My thumb laid on it causing my slide to never lock open. Yes, I know it's a training issue, but I wasn't going to change my firing grip for one gun that I wasn't crazy about in the first place.

As an armorer, two other things I've dealt with/seen...
1. You better keep your mag release assembly clean. Dirt, grime, etc. will lock it up or make it very difficult to manipulate. I've had to unfuck several of ours.
2. The springs in the XD45 mags are too weak and we experienced a lot of F-T-Feed malfunctions with them. After replacing the springs with Wolff XP, the F-T-Feed malfunctions disappeared.
2a. The mags in general are very dirt and crud sensitive.

I'm happy to have an issued Glock back in my holster.

This is some good data especially you being an armour. What was the failure rate as a percentage? What was the total population of XDs? What model of XDs experienced these issues?

[TN-popo]

Originally Posted by PackerfanXD

And I (and several thousand others) have had the opposite experience. Some people think it's the greatest trigger out of the box and some people hate it -preference.
Placement of the slide stop lever? C'mon man! You said yourself it was a training issue. Keep your thumbs pointed at the target and that won't happen (and your groups may improve)..
I can't recall ever cleaning the mag release on my XDs other than a drop of lube once in a great while. I never had a problem. I can't recall ever hearing of such an issue being a member of XDtalk for seven years. Nor have I ever had magazine issues in my 2 XD45s or heard of such an issue.
So rock on with what you like; more XDs for me...

I said not ALL of the post was preference, speculation, and hearsay.
Obviously, the first part was, but not the second part.

Like you say, if someone digs the XD line, rock on.
I was just offering the OP my thoughts and experience with them.

BTW, raging Cheesehead here and Wisconsin transplant who grew up in Milwaukee.

[Packman73]

Originally Posted by TN-popo

I said not ALL of the post was preference, speculation, and hearsay.
Obviously, the first part was, but not the second part.

Like you say, if someone digs the XD line, rock on.
I was just offering the OP my thoughts and experience with them.

BTW, raging Cheesehead here and Wisconsin transplant who grew up in Milwaukee.

Go Pack Go!

[TN-popo]

Originally Posted by dfclin073

This is some good data especially you being an armour. What was the failure rate as a percentage? What was the total population of XDs? What model of XDs experienced these issues?

Admittedly, not a huge sampling at all.
My agency primarily issues G22, G23, and G27s. SWAT gets XD45s (long story. 15 SWAT pistols).
I'm an armorer for both.

Approx 25% have experienced the mag release issue.

Regarding the mags...functioning has been fine with standard pressure ammo when kept clean. But, when we tested the guns with 230gr+P, we experienced a 50% failure rate (like not getting through a mag without a F-T-Feed malfunction).
These same guns were then used with mags that had Wolff XP springs installed and the failure rate dropped to 0%.
This lead me to believe that the increased slide velocity using +P ammo did not allow the borderline stock springs to push the following round up fast enough to be chambered.
Ammo used was Speer GD 230gr, Fed HST 230gr, and Fed HST 230gr+P.
Did we get a bad batch of mags? Maybe. Not trying to flame...just relating what I've dealt with.

Also, I'm not the first to observe that XD mags, in general, are more sensitive to dirt and crud as compared to, say, Glock mags.
Regards.

[dfclin073]

This post is not defending any make or model.
Obviously there is no literally perfect firearm but some are more reliable then others. How is lack of maintenance accounted for when looking at a firearms reliability?

[MistWolf]

Never mind, boys & girls- slipped through a crack, turned left and posted in the wrong thread, somewhere in the Twilight Zone

[ruchik]

I think this link explains it pretty well. It's from a police/SWAT officer in Texas who took it upon himself to research the XD/XDm, as the XDm is his duty weapon. The most telling point he made was that no matter who he talked to, be it military, law enforcement, or competition shooters, nearly no one could validate or confirm claims that XD/XDm's had so-and-so problems and issues. It was mostly "I heard from this guy who heard it from a guy who was there" type of response. In fact, the responses he received tended to be favorable. He also noted that for guns like say Glocks or M&P's, if they suffered a major failure most people treated them as anomalies; whereas if an XD/XDm suffered a major failure, it was treated as a serious design flaw. While certainly not an end-all review, he clearly states that you should do your own research and take everything you read with a grain of salt, including his own review. I appreciate that kind of honesty and frankness. In addition, he cites actual links to articles written by noted shooters such as Ron Avery, Clint Smith, and Ken Hackathorn who all speak favorably about the XD/XDm line. Again, not saying the rumors about these guns are/are not true, but keep an open mind, you may be surprised.

[PiercedJD]

Thread was far too long to read every post while at work but here goes my $.02:

Sample size of 1:2.

I've put around 3000 rounds through an XDM .40 service and a XDM 9mm compact. The only failures I have experienced so far were 2 failures to feed with the .40 which I believe to be ammo related (failed to cycle fully). Simple rack of the slide fixed.

I *did pick up some spare firing pin retention pins, as these are reportedly the first things to fail, however they've remained in the baggy thus far.

The ergos are fantastic, although stipling or grip tape are needed imho to enhance purchase on the grip. In spite of the aggressive lugs on the grip from the factory it still feels a bit slick in my hand without gloves on. With gloves it's a non issue.

In short I've had a quite positive experience with them.

Doing a 2 day course with them next month, will update if anything new (failures ) occurs.

[Packman73]

Well as many people here know, I am a fan of XDs though I am still relatively new to XDms. My wife has had a XDm9mm 3.8 for about a year now and I really liked it so I recently got one for me. Yesterday I was out with the wife shooting my XDm when the damn firing pin retaining roll pin started working it's way out the top. Not a big deal but I wasn't happy about it. I ordered some aftermarket roll pins, hopefully the new one will stay in place.

[PiercedJD]

Originally Posted by Axcelea

Issues I see for it are the grip safety being needed to operate the slide which can end up killing you if your in a situation where you must do it one handed and slip up a little (guns without this feature are more forgiving with one handed manipulations). Grip safety in general where I don't personally see a need for it for a gun like the XDM and is a liability to operating at all.

I've seen this arguement before, yet I've never had any problem racking the slide one handed? Grip the frame and use the front or rear sight post against your belt, a wall, desk, your friends new car, the family cat, etc....

Maybe there is some reason for racking the slide differently one handed that would cause this gripe to manifest?

Legitimate question here because I have no idea where this one handed operation/grip safety thing comes from.

[Littlelebowski]

There's SMEs on here that indeed have seen the XD fail en masse at dept/agency trials. DocGKR, for one.

Hackathorne no long endorses XDs. Quite the opposite.

With the proliferation of SWAT teams across the US, unfortunately a SWAT officer's endorsement must be vetted and not just accepted blindly.

Originally Posted by ruchik

I think this link explains it pretty well. It's from a police/SWAT officer in Texas who took it upon himself to research the XD/XDm, as the XDm is his duty weapon. The most telling point he made was that no matter who he talked to, be it military, law enforcement, or competition shooters, nearly no one could validate or confirm claims that XD/XDm's had so-and-so problems and issues. It was mostly "I heard from this guy who heard it from a guy who was there" type of response. In fact, the responses he received tended to be favorable. He also noted that for guns like say Glocks or M&P's, if they suffered a major failure most people treated them as anomalies; whereas if an XD/XDm suffered a major failure, it was treated as a serious design flaw. While certainly not an end-all review, he clearly states that you should do your own research and take everything you read with a grain of salt, including his own review. I appreciate that kind of honesty and frankness. In addition, he cites actual links to articles written by noted shooters such as Ron Avery, Clint Smith, and Ken Hackathorn who all speak favorably about the XD/XDm line. Again, not saying the rumors about these guns are/are not true, but keep an open mind, you may be surprised.

[CompressionIgnition]

Originally Posted by Littlelebowski

There's SMEs on here that indeed have seen the XD fail en masse at dept/agency trials. DocGKR, for one.

Hackathorne no long endorses XDs. Quite the opposite.

With the proliferation of SWAT teams across the US, unfortunately a SWAT officer's endorsement must be vetted and not just accepted blindly.

Out of curiosity, what agency trials were these? At what time did these happen?