"Battle Rifle" vs. "Precision Rifle"

[RHINOWSO]

Glad we got this 2 year old thread cleared up...

Good information though, always valuable!

[Javelin]

Glad we got this 2 year old thread cleared up...

Good information though, always valuable!

Maybe we could find another non-archived post

[sinister]

These are two photos of the same 7.62mm weapon, with the exception of the barrel:




If it's going to be carried and shot like an M4 you don't want it to weigh a ton (both those pictured do not have an IR aiming device). You'll get about 1.5 MOA for the pencil barrel, shooting Match Kings between 135, 155, 168, and 175 grains.

The heavier profile stainless will get you MOA or better, but it's going to be at the cost of weight and perhaps durability. It will shoot like the pencil barrel in a few thousand rounds. With a stainless barrel, once precision falls off it falls off a cliff.

Once again, most military requirements boil down to what is your mission, desired effect, and end-state?

Having a SCAR that breaks/disassembles itself (as noted by some of the guys who bought them with their personal funds) is, as they say in the intel and police business, a clue.

[Arctic1]

I am a proponent of the Mk17, but it needs work. I think of it much like the m16A2 vs. an M4. it needs updating and some revision. the 7.62 vs 5.56 is much like the 45 vs. 9mmfight. Speed of follow up shots vs. power.

#1 the 7.62 cartridge kills people in one shot, 5.56 sometimes maybe. Why do you think controlled pairs came about? You need a few 5.56 rounds to do the same damage as one 7.62.

#3 if we teach controlled pars that means 15 pairs per magazine. if you use 7.62 there is no need for controlled pairs so 20 shots per mag. Add to this the SCAR 17 was supposed to have 25 round mags. Which is now possible with a Handl lower.

#1 is a very bold statement, as well as a bit inaccurate. To "kill" someone is a matter of perspective; does the target die instantaneously, in 10 minutes, 1 hour, 1 day?

What is of importance is how fast incapacitation occurs; well aimed shots in the high thoracic area will achieve the same result regardless of rifle caliber. Achieving this comes down to many different factors. With a 5.56 gun, you will most likely be quicker with your first shot, and subsequnet shots than with a 7.62 gun.

Misses and hits in non-critical anatomical structures will be "ineffective" with both 7.62 and 5.56, in that people can continue to be a threat even after being shot.

The notion that a 7.62 is a one shot stop round is completely false.

#3 is a description of poor/inadequate training. A controlled pair is the very first step of learning recoil management of follow up shots. It is not a standard engagement procedure; you continue to engage the target until it stops being a threat.

And again, the notion that a 7.62 round guarantees a one shot stop is completely false.

[Koshinn]

You would need to wear a tank to stop m993 at CQC ranges.

I don't know about that. Is M993 significantly better at penetration than 30.06 AP? Cause my issued ESAPI ceramic plates are supposedly rated to stop .30-06 black-tip armor-piercing at muzzle velocity.

[JPB]

Having a SCAR that breaks/disassembles itself (as noted by some of the guys who bought them with their personal funds) is, as they say in the intel and police business, a clue.

Please provide evidence. I know of some stock latches that have broken, but everything else amounts to hand waving Internet rumorville.

[Failure2Stop]

Thanks for digging up a 2 year old thread for this.

1- False.

2- M993 is decent, but is hard on bolts.

3- False.

4- False.

I am a proponent of the Mk17, but it needs work. I think of it much like the m16A2 vs. an M4. it needs updating and some revision. the 7.62 vs 5.56 is much like the 45 vs. 9mmfight. Speed of follow up shots vs. power.

#1 the 7.62 cartridge kills people in one shot, 5.56 sometimes maybe. Why do you think controlled pairs came about? You need a few 5.56 rounds to do the same damage as one 7.62.

#2 the 5.56 has limited AP with the 62gr. m193 the m993 has serious AP capability. Our future enemies will fight more like us. This means CQC with body armor that might resist 5.56 AP. You would need to wear a tank to stop m993 at CQC ranges.

#3 if we teach controlled pars that means 15 pairs per magazine. if you use 7.62 there is no need for controlled pairs so 20 shots per mag. Add to this the SCAR 17 was supposed to have 25 round mags. Which is now possible with a Handl lower.

#4 I have seen what Handl has planned for the SCAR they just might pull off something pretty amazing with that platform. Plus if we shitcan the SCAR the hk417 is a pretty awesome way to go as well.

You seem pretty hot and heavy over Handl.
Any connection?

[M995]

I don't know about that. Is M993 significantly better at penetration than 30.06 AP? Cause my issued ESAPI ceramic plates are supposedly rated to stop .30-06 black-tip armor-piercing at muzzle velocity.

IIRC, steel core AP rounds like .30-06 AP can be stopped by NIJ Lv4 Plates and ESAPI plates. In the past, Dr. Roberts said M995 and M993 can defeat NIJ lv4 and ESAPI plates.

[PatrioticDisorder]

#4 I have seen what Handl has planned for the SCAR they just might pull off something pretty amazing with that platform. Plus if we shitcan the SCAR the hk417 is a pretty awesome way to go as well.

Let me guess you're referring to Handl making lowers compatible with an X-drum? Not so amazing, I'm sure the x-drum makes sense playing call of duty but in the real world 50 rounds of .308 is WAY too heavy and bulky. One of the advantages of the SCAR 17s is how light it is relatively speaking compared to other .308s. Why would anyone want to give up that advantage?

... And another thing, go over to the FN forums, Handl doesn't have a very good reputation, plenty of issues with the Handl lower that weren't well thought out and with OEM SCAR mags flooding the market, as cheap as $32 a mag, buying a Handl lower at $400+ makes absolutely no sense what so ever, unless you already have a shit ton of Pmags because you own other .308s that are SR-25 pattern compatible and just want 1 universal mag.

[yoni]

I think we can get too carried away with being obsessed with accuracy in our rifles that we use for real.

You can buy rifles today with a level of accuracy that were a fantasy for the people that went before us.

We have to define the mission of the rifle, are we punching holes in paper on the range? In my mind this brings up a specific kind of rifle.

Are we going to be using the rifle for real, then define the mission.

I had a sniper in my unit that was the best sniper that I have ever met. He immigrated from the former USSR and he spent the war in A stan there sniping, from the start to the finish of the war. I later met people in the former USSR that verified this guys CV.

He is retired now as I am, but he used to use a box stock Remington 700 with a synthetic stock and a Night force scope as his go to rifle.

The snipers of WW2 and later were using Garands with 4 power scopes and they were getting the job done.

Don't get me wrong a fancy rifle is great, but it is not my go to 7.62 rifle to go to in Afrika where I don't have a ton of parts and a gun smith to fix it when it breaks. No when it matters I carry a G3 clone, because it works like an AK but gives me more range and accuracy.