Gas piston question

[enjoyguns]

Hello. Great site. I am looking forward to purchasing a new AR 15 for general self defense/ plinking and because I like them in the next 2 months and need recommendations on POF p415-18 versus LWRC m6a3 in the 18 inch barrel. Two questions: What are your thoughts? 2. What are the other top 1 or 2 gas piston AR's out there? Thanks.

[Belmont31R]

Originally Posted by enjoyguns

Hello. Great site. I am looking forward to purchasing a new AR 15 for general self defense/ plinking and because I like them in the next 2 months and need recommendations on POF p415-18 versus LWRC m6a3 in the 18 inch barrel. Two questions: What are your thoughts? 2. What are the other top 1 or 2 gas piston AR's out there? Thanks.

Based on feedback Id go with LWRC.

[Honu]

Originally Posted by enjoyguns

Hello. Great site. I am looking forward to purchasing a new AR 15 for general self defense/ plinking and because I like them in the next 2 months and need recommendations on POF p415-18 versus LWRC m6a3 in the 18 inch barrel. Two questions: What are your thoughts? 2. What are the other top 1 or 2 gas piston AR's out there? Thanks.

for #2 what are other top pistons ?
I would say look at a LMT for piston ?


for your other questions what are my thoughts ?
in non piston there are a ton of options
KAC, Noveske, Colt, LMT would be my top choice in other rifles
I have a LMT piston and regular DI type LMT also ? to me pistons are fun and unique but not needed and are not the holy grail some make them out to be ? its just something unique and fun
if someone told you or you read on some other site they are the end all of end all designs and DI (regular) AR suck dont listen to them !!!


since you have time spend lots of time reading lots of posts here find a rifle you like do some searches here find the pros and cons and do that with each rifle

[enjoyguns]

I appreciate both Honu and Belmont 31 of for your help. I will take my time looking. Good shooting to you!

[rightwingmaniac]

many dea agents have championed numerous narcotic operations with the m6 series from lwrci. lwrci has concentrated its efforts to eliminate the shortcomings of the m16 - m4 di guns. their nitro-carborized cold hammer forged barrels are top of the line. i know, i own one my self in 6.8spc.

i used to own a pof-usa 415. i just sold it. it was a nice gun, i just prefer the lwrci.

ive shoot my brothers hk 416 also. i like it also, but still prefer the lwrci over it.

the lwrci is lighter than both of them (not a fan of big rails).

i cant comment on other pistons systems because i havent shot them.

what you have to be aware of on the internet is people that will bash weapons they have no exp. with.

[MK18Pilot]

Originally Posted by rightwingmaniac

lwrci has concentrated its efforts to eliminate the shortcomings of the m16 - m4 di guns.

In an effort to move the OP forward toward the right purchase, please outline the shortcomings of the M16 & M4 that LWRCi eliminated.

[Miale]

i have an m6a2 which was intended to be my go to gun but it's not. at best it's a 3 moa weapon and it takes just as long to clean as my colt and e3 because of the time it takes to get the rail covers off of the rail and then strip and reassemble.

i wouldn't say the quality is outstanding but it's not bad either.

[Ilove2shoot]

I am bias towards POF, I'll put that out there from the get go. but I just got a brand new 18" POF upper and it is shooting great. it has kept moa and sub moa so far with just some rough attempts for descent groups. Temporary scope on it and have not started to reload for it.

[The Rat]

Originally Posted by Miale

i have an m6a2 which was intended to be my go to gun but it's not. at best it's a 3 moa weapon and it takes just as long to clean as my colt and e3 because of the time it takes to get the rail covers off of the rail and then strip and reassemble.

i wouldn't say the quality is outstanding but it's not bad either.

It shouldn't take that long to clean, since as the manual states, you only need to clean the piston system every 5000 rounds or so. I get my M6A1 upper clean in fairly short order. Of course I do field cleanings, not detail cleanings as my norm.

[rightwingmaniac]

Originally Posted by MK18Pilot

In an effort to move the OP forward toward the right purchase, please outline the shortcomings of the M16 & M4 that LWRCi eliminated.

im glad you asked mr pilot,

The main improvement comes from the self-regulating short-stroke gas-piston system. This system eliminates the venting of hot, carbon-laden gases into the receiver and bolt carrier group, eliminating the intensive cleaning of DI rifles.

the bolt carrier group and associated springs are not subjected to the searing heat of the tapped gasses, this being one of the major causes of small parts failure. This means that gas piston rifles (LWRCI) are more reliable than DI guns.

Another benefit of a short-stroke gas-piston system is the improved handling characteristics of the weapon over the DI guns. Recoil is lighter and muzzle rise is greatly reduced.

the short-stroke gas-piston system is only one of the improvements LWRCI has made. the rifles utilize cold hammer forged barrels made out of 41V45 steel alloy and treated with NiCorr (nitrocarberization) surface conversion .

Cold hammer forging takes an oversized barrel blank, and using high pressure rotary hammers, compacts the barrel blank over a mandrel. This forms perfect rifling devoid of tool marks. It also compacts the molecular structure of the metal making it denser and stronger.

These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degrading, proving more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used.

the barrels are said to be good for 20,000 rounds. i dont think ill ever find this out. 6.8 ammo is really expensive right now.

the 1 piece bolt carriers of M6 rifles are coated with nickel which nearly eliminates corrosion and provides increased lubricity.

now let the hating begin!!!!

[rightwingmaniac]

Originally Posted by Miale

i have an m6a2 which was intended to be my go to gun but it's not. at best it's a 3 moa weapon and it takes just as long to clean as my colt and e3 because of the time it takes to get the rail covers off of the rail and then strip and reassemble.

i wouldn't say the quality is outstanding but it's not bad either.

i own a m6a2 also, its also my go to gun. mine is less then a year old, with the chf barrel. 4 out of 5 of my shot groups are sub moa. thats with a 4x acog!!! my rail cover comes off in about 15 seconds. but then again, i only clean the piston every 1000 rounds or so.

[FN in MT]

Originally Posted by Miale

i have an m6a2 which was intended to be my go to gun but it's not. at best it's a 3 moa weapon and it takes just as long to clean as my colt and e3 because of the time it takes to get the rail covers off of the rail and then strip and reassemble.

i wouldn't say the quality is outstanding but it's not bad either.

I've had an 18" 5.56mm M6A2 for about four months. It has been reliable as well as VERY accurate. With Federal 55 fmj I can easily get 1" at 100 yds with a 2 moa aimpoint. With 68 gr Match loads it shoots FAR better than I can hold it.

I took mine down and cleaned it after 800 rds and it required FAR less brushing and general fiddling around than ANY AR I've ever cleaned. One can literally douche off the bcg, same for the piston assy, swab the barrel, wipe off the parts, lube and put it back together. Cleaning with piston guns seems to be a real non issue.

And I WOULD say the quality is OUTSTANDING.

FN in MT

[Miale]

Originally Posted by rightwingmaniac

im glad you asked mr pilot,

The main improvement comes from the self-regulating short-stroke gas-piston system. This system eliminates the venting of hot, carbon-laden gases into the receiver and bolt carrier group, eliminating the intensive cleaning of DI rifles.

the bolt carrier group and associated springs are not subjected to the searing heat of the tapped gasses, this being one of the major causes of small parts failure. This means that gas piston rifles (LWRCI) are more reliable than DI guns.

Another benefit of a short-stroke gas-piston system is the improved handling characteristics of the weapon over the DI guns. Recoil is lighter and muzzle rise is greatly reduced.

the short-stroke gas-piston system is only one of the improvements LWRCI has made. the rifles utilize cold hammer forged barrels made out of 41V45 steel alloy and treated with NiCorr (nitrocarberization) surface conversion .

Cold hammer forging takes an oversized barrel blank, and using high pressure rotary hammers, compacts the barrel blank over a mandrel. This forms perfect rifling devoid of tool marks. It also compacts the molecular structure of the metal making it denser and stronger.

These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degrading, proving more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used.

the barrels are said to be good for 20,000 rounds. i dont think ill ever find this out. 6.8 ammo is really expensive right now.

the 1 piece bolt carriers of M6 rifles are coated with nickel which nearly eliminates corrosion and provides increased lubricity.

now let the hating begin!!!!

just a couple of points, if you shoot the m6a2 back to back with a di weapon you will find that the recoils is substantially greater and any reduction is muzzle rise is due to the increased weight and muzzle heavy design of the m6a2.

their chf barrels are from blanks made by ruger and the inconsistancy in accuracy may be due to the fact that when you cut threads in chf barrels, for flash hiders for example, the bores can open up a bit in response to this.

[Stephen_H]

Originally Posted by Miale

just a couple of points, if you shoot the m6a2 back to back with a di weapon you will find that the recoils is substantially greater and any reduction is muzzle rise is due to the increased weight and muzzle heavy design of the m6a2.

their chf barrels are from blanks made by ruger and the inconsistancy in accuracy may be due to the fact that when you cut threads in chf barrels, for flash hiders for example, the bores can open up a bit in response to this.

I'll agree with you that the LWRCs (and piston guns in general) tend to be more muzzle heavy than a comparably equipped DI gun, but disagree that they tend to recoil more.

What accuracy inconsistencies are you referring to? I know that they had some issues with the button rifled blanks they were getting prior, but haven't seen or heard any complaints with the new CHF barrels. On the contrary, most users are seeing near match grade accuracy.

Stephen

[TXSUT]

Originally Posted by rightwingmaniac

now let the hating begin!!!!

No hating whatsoever, as I am a fan of LWRC, but a general observation: You don't do much for your credibility when you copy straight from the MFR's sales literature and post it as if you wrote it yourself.

[carbinero]

I am only interested in a piston for a .308, but thought I'd add what I read by Constructor of www.ar15performance.com :

Constructor, what are the benefits of long vs. short stroke pistons systems? What makes your piston system different from a conversion system bought from another manufacturer?

"No op rod return springs to break like on the short stroke systems, the springs on the short stroke are over the hottest part of the barrel.
No spring pressure on the barrel from the op rod being pushed forward.
Our system has 5 ports and an "off"
A long stroke is a "push" system not an "impact" system.
Our system can be cleaned from the front by removing 1 pin, you have to remove the float tubes to clean most short stroke systems.

99% of all short stroke systems were copied from the Armalite AR180
my original design for the mono-chassis is based on the AK the LS system is modified to work in an AR15 without modifying the receiver."

via http://68forums.com/forums/showthrea...t=6889&page=15

[C4IGrant]

Originally Posted by enjoyguns

Hello. Great site. I am looking forward to purchasing a new AR 15 for general self defense/ plinking and because I like them in the next 2 months and need recommendations on POF p415-18 versus LWRC m6a3 in the 18 inch barrel. Two questions: What are your thoughts? 2. What are the other top 1 or 2 gas piston AR's out there? Thanks.

My first question for you, would be why you thought you needed a gas piston AR???


C4

[Miale]

Originally Posted by Stephen_H

I'll agree with you that the LWRCs (and piston guns in general) tend to be more muzzle heavy than a comparably equipped DI gun, but disagree that they tend to recoil more.

What accuracy inconsistencies are you referring to? I know that they had some issues with the button rifled blanks they were getting prior, but haven't seen or heard any complaints with the new CHF barrels. On the contrary, most users are seeing near match grade accuracy.

Stephen

shoot an m6a2 back to back with a 6920 and tell me it doesn't recoil more, most likely this is due to the fact that it and most other piston operated ar's are over gassed.

in so far as accuracy is concerned as i have stated numerous times, the best results i can get from the barrel, benched with match ammo is just under 3 moa and i'm not the only one. now that's fine for a fighting carbine. if as you say and others have posted, the barrels are capable of match grade accuracy i.e. below 1 moa, then assuming all things being equal, what would account for the difference?

the only references i can find with regard to this is from european manufacturers who have noted that chf barrels will open up when threads are cut into them.

[C4IGrant]

Originally Posted by MK18Pilot

In an effort to move the OP forward toward the right purchase, please outline the shortcomings of the M16 & M4 that LWRCi eliminated.

Agree and am wondering who are all of these "dea agents" are? Let us not forget that the DEA thought that the RRA AR was a good idea.

I think I would pass on ever listening to what the DEA had to say on weapons selection.



C4

[C4IGrant]

Originally Posted by Miale

shoot an m6a2 back to back with a 6920 and tell me it doesn't recoil more, most likely this is due to the fact that it and most other piston operated ar's are over gassed.

in so far as accuracy is concerned as i have stated numerous times, the best results i can get from the barrel, benched with match ammo is just under 3 moa and i'm not the only one. now that's fine for a fighting carbine. if as you say and others have posted, the barrels are capable of match grade accuracy i.e. below 1 moa, then assuming all things being equal, what would account for the difference?

the only references i can find with regard to this is from european manufacturers who have noted that chf barrels will open up when threads are cut into them.

I have NEVER found a piston gun that recoils softer than a mil-spec AR (with the correct gas port size).


C4