About shotguns... honestly.

[MudSkunk]

Originally Posted by LanceOregon

Why would a shotgun be easier to use? You provide no arguments of any kind to back that claim up.

A shotgun would certainly be harder to get access to quickly. Or do you sleep with your shotgun? A handgun can more easily be secured near your bed than any long gun.




As has already been pointed out, that is false, especially if you have a 223 carbine. Just load the gun up with some good varmint ammo, and the rifle will have poor penetrating ability.




You have a far greater chance of being killed by a bolt of lightning.




Irrelevant, for if an intruder is that close to you, you are probably already dead.




That is why people are now putting lasers on their handguns for night time use. They make accurate shooting in the dark very easy.

And has already been very clearly illustrated, shotguns also have to be aimed in order to hit anything.

I would have to say that virtually all of your advice and recommendations here are flawed.

--

shotguns are longer weapons than pistols. a longer weapon is easier to keep aligned under stress and under low vis situations. pistols are not as good manstoppers as hollywood makes them out to be. under stress and adrenalin unless person is hit in the head or spine they may go for a bit before even realizing they are shot. a shotgun allows a much wider wound channel and more oppurtunity for catastrophic damage to occur. a shotgun or other long arm is easier to use at longrange even just across a room.

go try it yourself sometime: go do 40 push ups 40 situps and run in place for a bit then do a few more pushups so you got a good bloodrush going and immediatly fire your pistol at a target for the full magazine then repeat with a long arm. there is a distinct difference in accuracy form a longarm to a pistol under stress.

unless you have ever been shot at you do not realize what an actual adrenaline rush can do to your body and even doing massive amount of calastenics(sp) doesnt properly simulate the effect. under stress especially for folks that have never had to operate with massive amounts of survival chemicals running through their systems most people cannot use pistols effectively at extremely short ranges.

a lot of police wounded by firearms are wounded by their own pistols which are taken away from them in scuffles or accidently go off during a struggle. a longarm is a LOT harder to twist around and discharge in your own gut than a pistol is.

varmint ammo is very powerful and has a LOT of energy if you need to fire through walls you better be sure whats on the other side. go try your favorite rounds and do some experimenting on various building materials. there is little diff tween a "varmint" round and a military 5.56 other than varmint rounds tend to be heavier bullets with more foot lbs of energy and better ballistics. not sure what you mean by that.

body armour doesnt mean just bullet proof vests. body armour can be just the normal clothing that people wear commiting a robbery. really thick jackets or coats stolen goods in a person's arms or just about anything that can be imagined that someone is carrying or wearing.

as for lasers they are a nice toy how often do you check the batteries in yours?? ever use it in the dark under stress?? ever try to find where that little red dot is at when your under stress?? another piece of technology to depend on and make sure is all working under stress.

figured logic would have some effect and i wouldnt have to explain each sentence. but young folks these days *shrug* i was just giving my opinion. until you have been i n a life and death situation and know what its like its totally different than doing a what if. shotguns i wouldnt take to war. for home defense they are a must have. the ease of use the ease of pointing at targets and the ease of operation under stress really cant be beat.

your entitled to your opinions. leave me to mine.

[SGT D USMC]

I think all weapons have their limitations and their strenths, Have a basic understanding and make a reasonable choice for the expected situation.

When faced with the sitution be the first with a reasonable shot with what is at hand. In that split second forget about all consiterations except for actually having a friendly in your sites. Almost all the details we have discussed should not be clogging your mind when its time to shot or you may lose. I also like to one up people on choosing the exactly perfect weapon and the perfect tactics. But that does not make you a serviver.

The winner is usualy the one that gets a reasonably good hit with a reasonably good round. Practice that. And yes I servived several fire fights, also they were a long time ago. And alot of what I learned from it was after alot of years of thinking about it and mostly from listening to others and not agreeing with all their long envolved tactics and gadgets. number 1 is still get the first hit.

_______________________________
he went into younder village and never returned

[LanceOregon]

Originally Posted by MudSkunk

your entitled to your opinions. leave me to mine.

So you are saying that you cannot take someone else disagreeing with your assertions?? If so, then you should simply just not post them in the first place.

Your comments about 223 ammo are a bit hypocritical and contradictory too. First you complain that 223 ammo has too much penetration. And now you complain that less fragile 223 loads have too little penetration. You can't have it BOTH ways, and maintain a consistent standpoint.


And these remarks by you:

Originally Posted by MudSkunk

figured logic would have some effect and i wouldnt have to explain each sentence. but young folks these days *shrug* i was just giving my opinion. until you have been i n a life and death situation and know what its like its totally different than doing a what if.

are extremely condescending in nature. You have absolutely no idea how old I am, or how many years I have been using firearms, or under what circumstances. So in making these assumptions, you are actually now speaking from total ignorance.

--

[Greg Bell]

Hey guys, let's be civil. This is a silly thing to be getting hot about.

[Pinder]

Back to the OPs first post, I dont believe that Racking the shotgun is going to magically scare anyone from my APT, nor do I believe that there is 1 type of ammunition that my SG fires that is the end all of rounds. But I do believe the the shot from Either Bird or Buck will ruin someones day. Hell, I think a .22 in my chest would make me have a bad day, even at 150 yards, would constitute as a bad day. I use 7 1/2 Bird shot, in my Mossy 590, partially because my nieghbors are close and the horsehair plaster would soak up most of it, partially because its the cheapest in my area to train with ($22 for 100). I have 2 tacticool gadgets on my 590, a 5 shot shotshell holder on the stock and yes, the Bayonette on the end - NOT for HD, but because Mass thinks that Bayonetts, pistol grips and collapsable stocks are the evilest thing known to Man. 8+1, +5 in reserve, 1911 with CMC 8 rd Mags (3), and a cell phone makes me feel confident at night that things will be ok.

With 16" barrels and Fixed stocks my ARs and my MP5 clone are no less unwieldly to carry through my APT.

[SGT D USMC]

I would personaly hear the rack of a slide than face some fanatic with a bayonet on his shotgun.

[BLACK LION]

Originally Posted by MudSkunk

shotguns are longer weapons than pistols. a longer weapon is easier to keep aligned under stress and under low vis situations. pistols are not as good manstoppers as hollywood makes them out to be. under stress and adrenalin unless person is hit in the head or spine they may go for a bit before even realizing they are shot. a shotgun allows a much wider wound channel and more oppurtunity for catastrophic damage to occur. a shotgun or other long arm is easier to use at longrange even just across a room.

go try it yourself sometime: go do 40 push ups 40 situps and run in place for a bit then do a few more pushups so you got a good bloodrush going and immediatly fire your pistol at a target for the full magazine then repeat with a long arm. there is a distinct difference in accuracy form a longarm to a pistol under stress.

unless you have ever been shot at you do not realize what an actual adrenaline rush can do to your body and even doing massive amount of calastenics(sp) doesnt properly simulate the effect. under stress especially for folks that have never had to operate with massive amounts of survival chemicals running through their systems most people cannot use pistols effectively at extremely short ranges.

a lot of police wounded by firearms are wounded by their own pistols which are taken away from them in scuffles or accidently go off during a struggle. a longarm is a LOT harder to twist around and discharge in your own gut than a pistol is.

varmint ammo is very powerful and has a LOT of energy if you need to fire through walls you better be sure whats on the other side. go try your favorite rounds and do some experimenting on various building materials. there is little diff tween a "varmint" round and a military 5.56 other than varmint rounds tend to be heavier bullets with more foot lbs of energy and better ballistics. not sure what you mean by that.

body armour doesnt mean just bullet proof vests. body armour can be just the normal clothing that people wear commiting a robbery. really thick jackets or coats stolen goods in a person's arms or just about anything that can be imagined that someone is carrying or wearing.

as for lasers they are a nice toy how often do you check the batteries in yours?? ever use it in the dark under stress?? ever try to find where that little red dot is at when your under stress?? another piece of technology to depend on and make sure is all working under stress.

figured logic would have some effect and i wouldnt have to explain each sentence. but young folks these days *shrug* i was just giving my opinion. until you have been i n a life and death situation and know what its like its totally different than doing a what if. shotguns i wouldnt take to war. for home defense they are a must have. the ease of use the ease of pointing at targets and the ease of operation under stress really cant be beat.

your entitled to your opinions. leave me to mine.

I may sound somewhat hypocritical but your post is hard to discern. The sentences tend to bleed into each other making it difficult to understand. That is probably why you feel you need to explain each one.

Also, you are not coming off on the right foot here. I am an FNG to these parts but I try to be respectful, tactful and use a little integrity. I may not be the best at it, but I try... I suggest you do the same my friend.
There is a wealth of knowledge overflowing this board and others alike... There are all types of experience and expertise in every background you can think of I am sure. Dont phuck up your opportunity to take part by being a tough guy or a smartass.

Back to our regularly scheduled program.

I am a proponent for using a shotgun whenever I can get my hands on it....same with my pistol and my rifle. I try not to have any bias towards any one of them, in terms of when and when not to use them. Distance shots are a different story so obviously the bias would go in favor of my rifle. You put me up close and personal and I will use whatever I can get my hands on wether its a pistol, shotgun, a knife or a rock....
Shotguns are a wonderful , powerful tool. I will always own and be proficient with one.

[WS6]

Originally Posted by Alaskapopo

I remember from shotgun training that taught us the A B and C zone concept. In the A zone less than 7 yards the shotgun is no easier to hit with. From 7 yards to 25 yards the pattern spread does help a bit. After 25 its harder to make reliable fight stopping hits. I personally believe that inside of 7 yards that buck shot is more effective than the best assault rifle rounds (.223, 2.62 ext) past that range I think the rifle rounds have the edge as the patterns spread gets too wide. But that is just my opinon.

As for slugs you can hit with them at 100 yards if you are a good shotgunner and know your gun and ammo. But hitting with a rifle at that range is far easier and faster.

Pat

For me, out to about 100m I can hit about as well with an M4 Benelli as I can with an AK-47 off-hand.

I think that if you can own only one weapon, the Shotgun is the one to own. The 12 gauge with a 3" chamber, to be specific, in which ever flavor you like. It can take any land animal in the world with merely a change of ammunition. No other weapon can lay claim to that. Truly versatile.

[BBB]

The shotgun would probably be my first choice in a one-gun solution; its a jack of all trades and master at one, that one is taking birds. But it will also, given the right ammo, barrel and distance, do just about whatever you want including some things a rifle cant do (or do very well). Wont be doing any long-range work with one, but inside its envelope it's the best all-around gun IMO.

[vaglocker]

I don't give a crap about versatility with a home defense gun. In fact I want a gun that's only good at one thing, and that one thing is killing bad guys. For me this is an AR.

[WS6]

I am in the shotgun=win out to 50 yards camp. ALl of my shotguns can put 4+ OOO pellets into a 14" circle out to 50 yards. Noone can argue that OOO will not at LEAST penetrate 14" in a BG, even out at 50 yards. It is my firm opinion that if I puncture both lungs and damage some of the great-vessels or the heart in a single shot, I have done a world of hurt.

What can go wrong?

Only 120ml of fluid (blood) in the pericardial sack will lead to cardiac tamponade and failure of the circulatory system.

Any puncture to the thoracic cavity that opens the pleural space to atmosphere either from the lung, or external to the chest-cavity, will cause a pneumothorax.

Without the pump, and without the lungs to oxygenate the blood that the pump pumps. Fail. Epic resounding fail.

Of course, one of those many pellets might also find part of the CNS on its hi-speed tour of BG.

Inside 50 yards, say, 10-50 yards, with a load it likes, a shotgun ensures the high probability of disruption of both lungs and damage to the heart or great vessels or both. I like the shotgun. It makes a mess. Sure, it may not cause massive wound-channels via individual pellets, but if the aorta, or other great vessels are struck, it really doesn't matter that it's "only" a .30" hole in/out. If the lung is punctured, again, it really isn't that big of a deal whether the hold is .30 or .50. The point is, the system is going down in a hurry, the brain will follow directly.

[M4Fundi]

thedog... you are a racist

I have reported you to the ACLU for scattergun discrimination

Shotguns were my primary for several years and I like them within their practical application

[Pinder]

After reading WS6's last post I decided to go on a witch-hunt for some backup that would solidify my argument for a shotgun. I load with 7 1/2 for a few reasons, 1 my neighbors are close, and I know that people argue that a .223 will stop in walls, While I was overseas I was shooting through truck hulls at 2-400m, my horsehair and drywall, and my neighbors walls wouldnt stand a chance! You can believe the stories in the thread or not, my purpose to provide this link is to show 7 1/2 bird in Ballistic Gel, and why I think the SG is a great HD weapon: "Pics are large, beware."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023

I stood against the wall, put my back as flat as I could, and a ruler on the wall. My torso came out 11 inches thick. The Shot from the BG shows 5.5 inches of Penetration. I can hear it, "Leather coat, winter coat, Body armor," and that would be the reason to NOT carry 1 shell in your shotgun, follow on shots. After he is down, you will not just walk away and pretend its over and go back to bed. You will cover him with your muzzle until the police arrive. I think that even if you hit them while they are wearing that coat or BA, they will still go down, maybe not dead, but down, and when you are standing there muzzle pointed at their face, I doubt there will be any more struggle.

[WS6]

Originally Posted by Pinder

After reading WS6's last post I decided to go on a witch-hunt for some backup that would solidify my argument for a shotgun. I load with 7 1/2 for a few reasons, 1 my neighbors are close, and I know that people argue that a .223 will stop in walls, While I was overseas I was shooting through truck hulls at 2-400m, my horsehair and drywall, and my neighbors walls wouldnt stand a chance! You can believe the stories in the thread or not, my purpose to provide this link is to show 7 1/2 bird in Ballistic Gel, and why I think the SG is a great HD weapon: "Pics are large, beware."

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=381023

I stood against the wall, put my back as flat as I could, and a ruler on the wall. My torso came out 11 inches thick. The Shot from the BG shows 5.5 inches of Penetration. I can hear it, "Leather coat, winter coat, Body armor," and that would be the reason to NOT carry 1 shell in your shotgun, follow on shots. After he is down, you will not just walk away and pretend its over and go back to bed. You will cover him with your muzzle until the police arrive. I think that even if you hit them while they are wearing that coat or BA, they will still go down, maybe not dead, but down, and when you are standing there muzzle pointed at their face, I doubt there will be any more struggle.

Pinder, I have long been an advocate of avoiding birdshot for self-defence. Here is why:

The heart and lungs are protected by ribs, the sternum, and the fact that if an "attacker"'s hands are hanging by his side, you have no real NEED to shoot unless he is firing from the hip or something. Likely, his hands will be wielding a weapon and he will be twisted to strike (as with a bat), putting his bicep and brachial and possibly radial and ulnar bones in the way of his chest-cavity, or holding a firearm/aiming it, in which case much the same is between your barrel and his heart/lungs.

In review:

Minimal barriers: Sternum, pectorial muscle, ribs.
Maxmimum barriers: Sternum, pectorial muscle, ribs, ulnar/radial/brachial bones and accompanying tendons/muscle/fat tissue.

You are hoping for a best-case scenario, which is still not the greatest. If you were shooting a heart sitting on a table, sure, birdshot would rock it's world. However, when the good Lord, or evolution, or whatever you ascribe your development to created you, you were created to be tough. To survive.

If you will follow with the next argument that I anticipate you making of taking a head-shot once your COM shot stuns/injures the opponent, I would remind you of the shooting of Officer Decoatsworth, of Philadelphia. Here is a link describing the incident. I hope you re-consider your load of choice based on the pertinent evidence provided you, or support your use of said load with scientific evidence backed by case-studies showing the efficacy of such.

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-a...r_in_Face.html

You will note, that for all of the great claims given to the ability of birdshot to "incapacitate, stun, dehabilitate", whatever, the target. A direct blast of it to the face did not stop this man from chasing the shooter for THREE BLOCKS. Now, if this guy can run for three blocks after being hit in the face with it, what's 15 feet to plunge a knife into your chest?

Yes, I am sure you would be firing round after round at him and it might do the trick, but I would rather fire round after round of buckshot. Yes Buckshot can fail, but it fails quite a bit less often.

[Stryker]

What I think, and I am WAY late in responding, is this was intended as a drama post....Who cares what anyone does with their....yeah, that's THEIR shotgun. I think every weapon has it's own purpose, and if I want to add a white light and a T1 to my benelli, it's my business. I also have my AR for when SHTF.....whatever. If I'm sleeping at 3 Am and have a home invasion, I'm probably grabbing the Benelli m4 with 2 3/4 00 buck, as I'm half asleep and don't need to worry about 3 chest 2 head.

[WS6]

Originally Posted by Stryker

What I think, and I am WAY late in responding, is this was intended as a drama post....Who cares what anyone does with their....yeah, that's THEIR shotgun. I think every weapon has it's own purpose, and if I want to add a white light and a T1 to my benelli, it's my business. I also have my AR for when SHTF.....whatever. If I'm sleeping at 3 Am and have a home invasion, I'm probably grabbing the Benelli m4 with 2 3/4 00 buck, as I'm half asleep and don't need to worry about 3 chest 2 head.

M4 FTW

[GlockMasterG9]

my go to HD weapons is a mossy 500a.
I use #4 shot. MY son is 2 rooms down the shot only needs to pass through 2 walls to get to him. No matter what I would end up aiming twords his end of the house.
So NO 00 buck shot or ar for me. If I have to shoot the bad guy more than 1 time fine........but I have other lives in the house more valuable than mine to think about.

Middle of the night woke up out of a deep sleep disoriented, yea I may not be at the top of my shooting game at that moment. So there's a good chance a few stray shots may miss the bad guy and got through the walls.
I could live with a lot but not if I shot my own kid cuz I wanted to make sure I did the most damage possible in one shot. The whole point is to defend my family.
That being said every situation is different as is every house environment so everyone's decision will differ.
Of course my little commando here is well trained hopefully he will keep his head down.

[WS6]

Originally Posted by GlockMasterG9

my go to HD weapons is a mossy 500a.
I use #4 shot. MY son is 2 rooms down the shot only needs to pass through 2 walls to get to him. No matter what I would end up aiming twords his end of the house.
So NO 00 buck shot or ar for me. If I have to shoot the bad guy more than 1 time fine........but I have other lives in the house more valuable than mine to think about.

Middle of the night woke up out of a deep sleep disoriented, yea I may not be at the top of my shooting game at that moment. So there's a good chance a few stray shots may miss the bad guy and got through the walls.
I could live with a lot but not if I shot my own kid cuz I wanted to make sure I did the most damage possible in one shot. The whole point is to defend my family.
That being said every situation is different as is every house environment so everyone's decision will differ.
Of course my little commando here is well trained hopefully he will keep his head down.

Why don't you upgrade to #4 buck and install a book-case filled with books between your son's bed and your line of fire? Even if you DON'T go to a more effective projectile, the book-case is a good idea. Tailor your environment to give you the advantage. Also nice to see a parent raising a child who respects firearms instead of fears them.

[GlockMasterG9]

Good suggestion but that just wont work with the way the room is set up.

[Redmanfms]

Originally Posted by WS6

Why don't you upgrade to #4 buck and install a book-case filled with books between your son's bed and your line of fire? Even if you DON'T go to a more effective projectile, the book-case is a good idea. Tailor your environment to give you the advantage. Also nice to see a parent raising a child who respects firearms instead of fears them.

I've never been impressed with #4. Sub-standard even as a hunting round.



Agree however with your post above about the versatility of a shotgun. Its settles the "if you could only have one gun...." conversation.

Supreme at small game and birds.
Good on big game at reasonable ranges.
Good on baddies at reasonable ranges.

It's no small thing that the overwhelming majority of Western settlers chose shotguns as their "one gun."



That said, I'd still reach for my AK-102 clone first for a home defense situation.