Special Ops ammo

[Slater]

In the below presentation, it mentions the fielding of "147g 9mm Speer Gold Dot G2" in FY18. This is a bit out of my lane, but this seems like just another flavor of 9mm ammo that is available to the users. Is this supposed to be something of a big deal?:

https://ndiastorage.blob.core.usgovc...May17Owens.pdf

[MegademiC]

If they are using ball ammo, yes. I believe they are as we don't (as far as I know) use HP.
Since the g2 has a gel tip, it's not a hollow point - though I'm not sure if the wording on "why" we don't use HP.

[sundance435]

I love the big ol' dip in the lip of the guy on the cover - 'Merica! Either DoD or DoJ counsel have previously written memos stating that hollow points are "ok" in non-declared conflicts and/or against non-state enemies. Previously, Hague restrictions on non-ball ammo were interpreted as applying generally to all armed forces. So, in that sense, it could be a big deal, though presumably it only applies to SOCOM operations. Of all the "arms treaties" we ignore, I'm surprised this aspect of one held sway for so long.

[WickedWillis]

If they are using ball ammo, yes. I believe they are as we don't (as far as I know) use HP.
Since the g2 has a gel tip, it's not a hollow point - though I'm not sure if the wording on "why" we don't use HP.

Geneva convention I think?

[Averageman]

I think the point was that munitions were being altered in the trenches and caused wounds that were difficult to treat with early 20th century medicine.
I don't believe we've prosecuted anyone building improvised explosive devices for war crimes yet have we?
And given the choice between a hollow point or a IED...?

[WickedWillis]

I think the point was that munitions were being altered in the trenches and caused wounds that were difficult to treat with early 20th century medicine.
I don't believe we've prosecuted anyone building improvised explosive devices for war crimes yet have we?
And given the choice between a hollow point or a IED...?

But we don't hold the people using IED's to that standard though either. I don't think they sign off on NATO rules.

[C-grunt]

I believe part of the new handgun trials was that the gun had to feed hollow point ammo. I do believe there was/is a side program to test 9mm hollow points to be standard issue.

[sinister]

USSOCOM units receive standard-issue ammo from their parent services for general training and combat. That ammo is bought with each service's funds (Army ammo for Army Special Operations Command units, Marine ammo for MARSOC, Navy ammo for NAVSPECWAR, etc.).

SOCOM ammo is bought with SOCOM money for SOCOM targets. Non-state or government combatants (i.e., non-flagged terrorists) are free game for use of expanding ammunition. They are not signatories to the Hague and Geneva Conventions, and they do not extend those courtesies to captured US Forces.

[sundance435]

Geneva convention I think?

Common misconception - it was the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. When someone says "Geneva Convention", most of the time it's actually the Hague Conventions, if they're referring to restrictions on means of warfare.

"Geneva" of today was a post-WWII treaty (updating previous Geneva accords) and pertains mostly to prisoners of war and treatment of non-combatants, rather than instruments of war like the Hague treaties. Post-WWII Geneva is a cornerstone of international law and a basis for war crimes prosecution.

Even more confusing is that there is a "Geneva Protocol" to the Hague Conventions. When talking about prohibitions of chemical/biological weapons, that's the foundational basis in law, though it too has been augmented over the years.

[WickedWillis]

Common misconception - it was the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. When someone says "Geneva Convention", most of the time it's actually the Hague Conventions. What most people refer to as "Geneva" was a post-WWII treaty and pertains mostly to prisoners of war and treatment of non-combatants. That Geneva is a cornerstone of international law and a basis for war crimes prosecution.

Thank you for the clarification on that.