Movement in open area while engaged

**vicious_cb** · 04-09-15, 19:57

Originally Posted by Ron3

This made me chuckle a bit.

I do practice shooting on the move. If I move slowly and steadily (deliberate walk I guess you could call it) I do "okay" at close range. Walking quickly and firing at a 15 yd target well..there will be torso hits, but I consider an A zone of 4 inches and B zone of 8 inches.

What made me chuckle was I sometimes feel disappointed in myself for not being better at this. But the truth is..it's hard for anybody and I should focus on shooting and moving but NOT at the same time. (unless target is really close)

Exactly, I used to practice it a lot because you see it constantly in instructor's training regimens so it must be important right? Until I started recording my training sessions and critiquing them. When I saw how slow I was moving I actually felt stupid. Like that would actually get me killed if I tried something it in a real gunfight stupid. Now the only SotM training I do is backpedaling a few steps while drawing to simulate avoiding contact weapons.

Im not saying it wrong to practice but the amount of time and emphasis on SotM is greatly exaggerated by many instructors, all Im asking is to really question how useful certain techniques really are and not because XYZ said so.

http://www.combatshootingandtactics....real_fight.pdf

Reference shooting on the move. It is a skill that all shooters aspire to learn and
spend a great deal of time and effort trying to master. I have never had to use it in
combat. When moving at a careful hurry, I stopped planted and made my shots.
When the bullets were flying, I was sprinting from cover to cover, moving too fast to
shoot. I did not find an in between. If I slowed down enough to make a solid hit
when under fire, I was an easy target, so I elected not to

As for shooting and closing on a target, it only makes the bad guys accuracy better
and walking into a muzzle may help you to test your new vest sooner than you
wanted to. Diagonal movement works, but again if you have to slow down too
much, you are an easy target, and are generally in the open. Speed can act as your
security in this case to get you to a point of cover.

**Ron3** · 04-09-15, 20:22

Since I started this thread (and really appreciate the discussion) I'd like to link to a drill-set that I made up.

It's not really related to the topic of this thread. Anyway here is the link:

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...-Drills/page17

**T2C** · 04-09-15, 22:03

Originally Posted by vicious_cb

Im not talking about how well you can shoot on the move. Its the fact that you are walking at a snails pace to get those hits.

If you walk at a snail's pace, you would fail the qualification.

**T2C** · 04-09-15, 22:06

Originally Posted by Voodoo_Man

Interesting.

Ive done movement drills that are at dead run speeds, most competent shooters can get solid hits on target up to about 10 yards then it falls apart, normally.

Anything at distance, like 25 or 50 yards you have to be actually using the sights.

We are talking about training rank and file LEO when I talk about moderate speeds.

I haven't even seen SWAT personnel who could hit a target at a dead run with a pistol. We do not teach unsighted fire.

**26 Inf** · 04-09-15, 23:04

Originally Posted by Eurodriver

When you say "work more to engage you" I am assuming you mean that his weapon (and body) needs to be moving more quickly to keep up with you?

I do this quite a bit in training with NLTA teaching guys to move off the draw - take a guy aside brief him and drill him without the other folks seeing it - then face them at 4-5 yards - virgin bad guy (never seen drill before) has 17T in back waistband, set up FI, bad guy moves for gun, officer drops DL, moves and draws diagonally in, almost always beat bad guy, first time. That time it was all about OODA. Generally, after that the officer will never beat the non-virgin bad guy, because the bad guy knows what the officer is going to do, he expects movement, so he has already decided what to do in response, all he has to key on is which way.

Since 1976 just a tick over 50% of the police shootings in which an officer was killed happened within 5 feet of the offender; over 80% within 20 feet. I would be willing to bet that those distances are not the combat gunfight distances that Paul Howe was quoted as talking about.

As someone said earlier, LEO's need to train beyond those distances, because LEO's need to be thinking about tactics they can use to make initial contact and assessment beyond those distances.

**vicious_cb** · 04-10-15, 01:16

Originally Posted by 26 Inf

I do this quite a bit in training with NLTA teaching guys to move off the draw - take a guy aside brief him and drill him without the other folks seeing it - then face them at 4-5 yards - virgin bad guy (never seen drill before) has 17T in back waistband, set up FI, bad guy moves for gun, officer drops DL, moves and draws diagonally in, almost always beat bad guy, first time. That time it was all about OODA. Generally, after that the officer will never beat the non-virgin bad guy, because the bad guy knows what the officer is going to do, he expects movement, so he has already decided what to do in response, all he has to key on is which way.

Since 1976 just a tick over 50% of the police shootings in which an officer was killed happened within 5 feet of the offender; over 80% within 20 feet. I would be willing to bet that those distances are not the combat gunfight distances that Paul Howe was quoted as talking about.

As someone said earlier, LEO's need to train beyond those distances, because LEO's need to be thinking about tactics they can use to make initial contact and assessment beyond those distances.

And I agree with you, at extreme close range getting off the line of the line if attack is 99% the correct thing to do but in the context of this thread, as per the OP's situation at 35 yards you can absolutely apply Paul Howe's advice. You either sprint to cover or drop to the prone and engage. Shooting on the move in the OP's situation is the wrong decision either forwards, backwards or diagonally.

**Voodoo_Man** · 04-10-15, 07:16

Originally Posted by T2C

We are talking about training rank and file LEO when I talk about moderate speeds.

I haven't even seen SWAT personnel who could hit a target at a dead run with a pistol. We do not teach unsighted fire.

I understand completely.

It is, technically sighted fire, you just aren't using your sights.

We should hit the range one day...

**jbjh** · 04-10-15, 11:41

With respect to going prone (and I realize this is a theoretical Bogeyman), isn't the angle of deflection of ricochetting rounds exceptionally shallow? Should the good guy be worried about essentially giving the bad guy a larger target to hit because of the ability for rounds to not have to directly hit their target in order to be effective?

Sent from 80ms in the future
Much peace
Jimmy