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Thread: DI or Piston?

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    I find it ironic that the most vocal anti "short/long stroke piston AR" member on this board says the following:



    Why such strong opinions on something that you have no experience with? You are also incorrect about your assertions (at least in how it applies to the HK family of piston guns). You state:



    This is incorrect. See Section 9.2 Lubrication Guide, page 23, in this HK416 Manual:

    http://www.geekgunman.com/manuals/416_manual.pdf

    Unless shooting suppressed or using a BFA, there is next to no fouling in the upper and lower receiver. As I have stated before, the area with the most fouling on an HK416 is inside the handguard around the gas block.
    There is no need to regularly clean the piston or the piston rod (no fouling on this part). The piston itself will be discolored from the hot gases, and if there is any build up of carbon on it, just use a copper brush to remove. Very simple.

    The HK is probably 90% parts compatible with a regular DI AR - the parts that needs changing after a while are the gas rings on the piston.

    The perceived increased recoil (for the HK) is due to it being slightly over gassed, and as such has a sharper recoil impulse. Shooting the same ammo, the heavier HK will have less recoil (ie rearward momentum) than a similar AR.
    The whole "more reciprocating mass" argument is hogwash.

    As others have said, if you go piston, choose one that was built from the ground up - don't use a retro-fit kit.
    They are pricier
    There is less aftermarket support for them in terms of handguards and barrels
    There is less flexibility with the gas system
    Arctic, which HK does your outfit use? The 7.62 or 5.56? I'm sure you've stated it before, but I cannot remember.


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  2. #32
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    The Norwegian mil uses both the HK416 (10.5" and 16.5" versions) and the HK417 (20" accurized version), as well as the MP7A1.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC5188 View Post
    What makes you think you hurt my feelings? Lol.

    You don't like irrefutable? Fine. Show me where I'm wrong. I'm willing to learn.


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    As I've said, this is a silly concept to debate, but I will entertain this quickly, and after this I won't bother with it anymore.

    I felt you were slighted as you chose to pick a statement about you, though its not like I quoted you and insulted you, simply stated that my experience had differed. Once more, it wasn't meant as a slight, merely an expression of difference. I also should add, I didn't even look at your name when I read your comment. Your reply seemed like you took it negatively when that wasnt the intent.

    To the core points I am trying to make:
    Prices vary, piston and di, aren't that far anymore. As mentioned, my adams arms was 525. Yes, a blem, which furthers my point, every gun is different for different prices.

    Reality can be impacted by gas port, buffer weight, muzzle devices.
    Perception is impacted by:
    Fitness level, skill level, stance, experience, etc.

    I'm not going to bother with explaining further, since, again, we're debating about recoil between di and piston and quality vs cost and etc.

    Redundant argument, but I entertained it because I honestly did not mean to offend you with misqouting your comment by a slight terminology difference.
    Last edited by HeruMew; 04-18-17 at 17:09.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by HeruMew View Post
    As I've said, this is a silly concept to debate, but I will entertain this quickly, and after this I won't bother with it anymore.

    I felt you were slighted as you chose to pick a statement about you, though its not like I quoted you and insulted you, simply stated that my experience had differed. Once more, it wasn't meant as a slight, merely an expression of difference. I also should add, I didn't even look at your name when I read your comment. Your reply seemed like you took it negatively when that wasnt the intent.

    To the core points I am trying to make:
    Prices vary, piston and di, aren't that far anymore. As mentioned, my adams arms was 525. Yes, a blem, which furthers my point, every gun is different for different prices.

    Reality can be impacted by gas port, buffer weight, muzzle devices.
    Perception is impacted by:
    Fitness level, skill level, stance, experience, etc.

    I'm not going to bother with explaining further, since, again, we're debating about recoil between di and piston and quality vs cost and etc.

    Redundant argument, but I entertained it because I honestly did not mean to offend you with misqouting your comment by a slight terminology difference.
    Fair enough then


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  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arctic1 View Post
    I find it ironic that the most vocal anti "short/long stroke piston AR" member on this board says the following:



    Why such strong opinions on something that you have no experience with? You are also incorrect about your assertions (at least in how it applies to the HK family of piston guns). You state:



    This is incorrect. See Section 9.2 Lubrication Guide, page 23, in this HK416 Manual:

    http://www.geekgunman.com/manuals/416_manual.pdf

    Unless shooting suppressed or using a BFA, there is next to no fouling in the upper and lower receiver. As I have stated before, the area with the most fouling on an HK416 is inside the handguard around the gas block.
    There is no need to regularly clean the piston or the piston rod (no fouling on this part). The piston itself will be discolored from the hot gases, and if there is any build up of carbon on it, just use a copper brush to remove. Very simple.

    The HK is probably 90% parts compatible with a regular DI AR - the parts that needs changing after a while are the gas rings on the piston.

    The perceived increased recoil (for the HK) is due to it being slightly over gassed, and as such has a sharper recoil impulse. Shooting the same ammo, the heavier HK will have less recoil (ie rearward momentum) than a similar AR.
    The whole "more reciprocating mass" argument is hogwash.

    As others have said, if you go piston, choose one that was built from the ground up - don't use a retro-fit kit.
    They are pricier
    There is less aftermarket support for them in terms of handguards and barrels
    There is less flexibility with the gas system
    Welcome back.

    When would you suggest or chose a piston over a DI ar?
    I'm assuming you see some benefit in your location, is that true?
    Last edited by MegademiC; 04-18-17 at 17:37.

  6. #36
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    Arctic, I've never been anti "piston" AR. I'm simply not pro "piston"AR. I see no reason to spend more money for a system that, for all practical purposes, does the same thing.

    While it's true I don't have much in the way of experience with gas block piston ARs, I have plenty of experience with other gas block piston rifles. I have experience with a lot of mechanical systems going back to more than 40 years. There isn't much difference between how gas block piston rifles foul. Shoot a bunch of round through an FAL, then disassemble it. Depending on the powder used in the ammo, the fouling around the piston and gas block gets pretty gummy. There isn't any real difference in how a gas block piston fouls compared to how a carrier piston fouls. Hell, reciprocating engine pistons exhibit similar fouling.

    I can't download and read the pdf link you posted, so I don't know if the piston of the HK needs to be lubed, how it's lubed or how often it's lubed. But I do know you have to disassemble most gas block piston designs to lube the piston. To lube a standard AR piston, all you gotta do is place a few drops in the exhaust ports of the carrier. Keeping the piston lubed keeps the carbon fouling soft.

    I am not a face shooter. I am a technician. Given time to study a mechanical device, I will understand what makes it work. That's what I do professionally. That's what I do to keep a roof over my head, food on my table, my wife happy and ammo in my magazines. Because I like having these things, I have become very good at what I do. Small arms are very simple devices to understand. My explanations are based on years of experience and professional knowledge. I am human and have biases and opinions. But I do my best to make my explanations fair and honest.

    Since you have challenged my expertise as a mechanical technician, I ask you- what is your background as a mechanical technician?
    Last edited by MistWolf; 04-18-17 at 18:25.
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  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by MegademiC View Post
    Welcome back.

    When would you suggest or chose a piston over a DI ar?
    I'm assuming you see some benefit in your location, is that true?
    Thanks.

    What we have seen is improved reliability over competitors in harsh conditions, reduced wear of parts compared to the C8 (I cannot definitely say if that is related to the piston operating system or just overall quality of the system), good mechanical accuracy (in combination with our issued ammo).

    As far as choosing between piston and DI, I am not sure I am in a position to make a qualified suggestion.

    I am more concerned with whether or not the weapon is capable of performing in accordance with the statement of requirements - if a piston or DI gun are both capable then that is fine by me. The method by which it unlocks is of secondary concern, if that makes sense.
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by MistWolf View Post
    Arctic, I've never been anti "piston" AR. I'm simply not pro "piston"AR. I see no reason to spend more money for a system that, for all practical purposes, does the same thing.

    While it's true I don't have much in the way of experience with gas block piston ARs, I have plenty of experience with other gas block piston rifles. I have experience with a lot of mechanical systems going back to more than 40 years. There isn't much difference between how gas block piston rifles foul. Shoot a bunch of round through an FAL, then disassemble it. Depending on the powder used in the ammo, the fouling around the piston and gas block gets pretty gummy. There isn't any real difference in how a gas block piston fouls compared to how a carrier piston fouls. Hell, reciprocating engine pistons exhibit similar fouling.

    I can't download and read the pdf link you posted, so I don't know if the piston of the HK needs to be lubed, how it's lubed or how often it's lubed. But I do know you have to disassemble most gas block piston designs to lube the piston. To lube a standard AR piston, all you gotta do is place a few drops in the exhaust ports of the carrier. Keeping the piston lubed keeps the carbon fouling soft.

    I am not a face shooter. I am a technician. Given time to study a mechanical device, I will understand what makes it work. That's what I do professionally. That's what I do to keep a roof over my head, food on my table, my wife happy and ammo in my magazines. Because I like having these things, I have become very good at what I do. Small arms are beer simple devices to understand. My explanations are based on years of experience and professional knowledge. I am human and have biases and opinions. But I do my best to make my explanations fair and honest.

    Since you have challenged my expertise as a mechanical technicians, I ask you- what is your background as a mechanical technician?
    My background as it pertains to the topic at hand is 15 years experience with a wide variety of weapons, spanning from handguns, sub-machineguns, assault rifles, battle rifles, light machine guns, general purpose machine guns, heavy machine guns, grenade launchers, recoilless rifles, AT-missile systems. Specifically, I have 10 years experience with piston AR's, the HK416.

    As a platoon sergeant and platoon leader I was responsible for maintaining and keeping operational a fleet of the above weapons, meaning that I had to have the subject matter expertise on all systems, including cycle of operations and causes of malfunctions so that we could either 1)repair them at the unit level or 2)hand them in for repairs at the depot level. The above was done in both training and in operational conditions, in climates ranging from the arctic to the desert. This includes PMCS, PCI, PCC, quarterly inspections etc.

    I am a certifed AR armorer by a large manufacturer.

    I am also pretty good at understanding what makes something work, as my life and the lives of my men depended on keeping these weapons operational at all times. I have successfully done so in environments much more demanding that what you most likely have - my knowledge on this subject matter is not theory, it comes from practical experience. I know what works.

    While there are many similarities and cross-over between weapons, each is a different system with it's own peculiarities. One approach that works for one system might not work for another.
    Just because you have an experience with the FAL doesn't mean that the same happens with a piston AR. Different animals.

    Seeing as you consider yourself a professional at your job, would you EVER teach a topic or hold a lecture about a topic where your intro/bio includes the words:

    "I have no experience with XYZ, but....."

    In no professional arena I know would that fly. At my old job people would have told me STFU and sit down.

    You can claim that there is no difference between how piston guns foul, but you don't know, as you have by your own admission never shot one. I have shot a lot of different weapons over the years, and the HK416/HK417 family of weapons is by a huge margin the easiest to clean - there is no carbon fouling to speak of (unless shooting suppressed or with a BFA, in which back pressure is increased and more fouling is deposited in the lower/upper).
    It's not about surviving, it's about winning!

  9. #39
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    As a whole, a FAL is a different animal, but the gas block and piston are very similar. There aren't many variations to choose from. The physics don't change. The laws of thermodynamics don't change. The laws of fluid dynamics don't change. It's not voodoo. It's science and not that difficult to understand. There is nothing magical about any of the gas systems
    The number of folks on my Full Of Shit list grows everyday

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  10. #40
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    This is why threads like this need to be immediately locked. They all eventually devolve into discussion of minutiae of shit that doesnt really matter to an end user.

    ALL GUNS WILL LOCKUP WHEN FROZEN. Just dont be stupid enough to take your gun inside and let it sweat then take it out in the snow again.

    Instead of worrying about piston vs DI in the snow, worry about how to bivvy and dry off before you freeze to death. Or how to catch a hot MG3 barrel during a barrel change cause you aint getting it back if you miss...

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