Can a tier 2 AR/M4 be improved to tier 1 ?

[Warp]

I look at it in terms of parts that CANNOT be easily replaced after the gun is built.

Everything in the lower is relatively easy to swap out except the takedown pins spring detents (those are little sons of bitches).

In the upper, the barrel (which includes the barrel extension, gas port size, and includes the quality of the barrel steel) cannot be quickly or easily swapped out unless you know how to and have the right tools. Same goes for the upper receiver if it is out-of-spec (i.e. the threads are not cut properly, the raceway is not parallel, the cam pin track is machined improperly, the actual heat treat/hardness of the upper is too soft, the anodizing of the upper is too soft or cheap, etc.

The problem is, the most expensive part of any standard format upper (with an FSB and no fancy free float handguards) is the barrel. The first place that cheapy makers save money is......THE BARREL. This means the employment of various grades of 4140 steel, with various quality levels of heat treat and finishing...with or without chrome lining.

This also includes gas ports that run on the large side (and are often inconsistent in size from gun-to-gun as they don't change their drill bit for the gas ports at the factory very often). This is for a few reasons. They may need a larger gas port to overcome some tolerance stacks in their non-mil-spec upper assemblies. Example: the upper receiver's threads are SLIGHTLY out of perpendicular to the bore centerline (I've seen it). This means that some binding occurs of the BCG as it cycles in the upper. Additionally, there may be a small gas leak between the gas key and the bolt carrier as those surfaces haven't undergone the additional prep-steps of having the surfaces smoothed and ready to be mated or the gas key screws haven't been torqued properly. Couple these two issue with a cheap (read: rough) surface finish on the type-II anodizing (which is MUCH cheaper and softer than the type III used on mil spec guns) inside the upper and you have a set of circumstances that REQUIRE a larger gas port so that most guns coming off the line will run properly.

The problem is, when you buy a gun from a manufacturer who doesn't adhere to the tight tolerances, dimensions, materials, and assembly techniques of the TDP, it's impossible to KNOW what is out of spec and what is not. So, it's not always as easy as swapping out a few parts. If your barrel, barrel extension, upper, or gas port are out of spec....you can't fix that without replacement.....which means you might as well buy a quality unit to begin with.

Make sense?

A cheap gun can be made MORE reliable by the substitution of quality parts just as a Nissan 370z can be made to perform better than stock with aftermarket upgrades. However, that 370z will never be a GTR. To get a GTR, you need to buy one of those. Even if the 370z gets a supercharger, drag slicks, a LSD, short shift kit, etc.....and it is able to equal the GTR in acceleration numbers (unlikely). Even IF that were to take place, it is still NOT a GTR.

To get a quality gun that adheres to the TDP (Technical Data Package), you simply have to buy one from a manufacturer that follows the TDP tot he letter.

I dare submit that an AR15, not assembled according to the requirements of the TDP (i.e. ALL lower-tier guns) is not really an AR15 at all....but a cheap clone thereof. I realize that this will ruffle some feathers but think about it in terms of handguns. Glock licenses some countries to make versions of Glock handguns in those countries. If you buy a Glock that is NOT made by Glock, or made to Glock's exact specs in every way, like one of these other entities....then do you REALLY have a Glock? Or do you have, at that point, a less-than-perfect copy?

...but isn't there only ONE manufacturer who has access to the TDP?

[djmorris]

You know what, so do I. But I also advocate using common sense and not jumping to the conclusion that anything other than Colt, Noveske or BCM will automatically shit the bed and spontaneously combust when the flag drops.

You're right - Daniel Defense, LMT, LaRue, Troy, PSA, and Spikes don't combust either.

[M4Fundi]

I started out with Tier 2 and she could get the job done, but wasn't pleasant to play with and was very heavy and didn't handle well... I called her Shelly


Then I decided to do ALOT of plastic surgery and changed alot of parts internal and external and ended up with a highly functional HSLD piece of ass... err I mean kit and it still wasn't satisfactory something just fake, plastic, gawdy and flashy with no soul... I called her Slutty


Then I said, "sod this!" I'm gonna sell this FrankenBitch and upgrade to proper Tier One and I ended up with this... I call her Sheri and she is made by Noveske Oh, and that is the nice All American and lovely sales lady holding her

[das]

I am attempting to make an earnest effort to pass on some of my experiences. First off, you should clearly state what your purpose is for your rifle(s) in your original post. Are you shooting cans off the back porch, are you in LE or plan on using the rifle for defensive purposes? Each will give you a different answer, at least from me. In the future, uses and budget help to formulate an appropriate reply.

If you are killing cans in the back forty, I would say not to worry about it, shoot it and if something breaks, then invest in fixing it, perhaps with better quality parts. For this purpose, your rifles as are will probably give you a lifetime of pleasure without upgrades.

Now if it is going to see defensive or critical uses I would offer similar advice that was given as "upgrades". Chances are, with a proper vetting your rifles will probably be just fine as they are. However my preference in this type of situation would be to have a weapon with the highest amount of reliability to perform as needed each and every time, so yes I would upgrade certain areas. Also for my purposes or what I would expect from anyone deploying a weapon for defensive purposes is that there should be high volumes of training, so a more reliable weapon is my preference. However I will not automatically offer such "upgrade" advice without all the pertinent shooters information, which I feel was not given.

You say that you have an unfired Stag yet it may be used to defend the family? One piece of advice....no weapon should be relied upon for this type of defensive situation until it has been fully fired for function and vetted as reliable. This should be a few hundred rounds in various types of fire / manipulations. It does not matter if it is your older unfired Stag, "upgraded, tier 1" Stag, or a Colt 6920 out of the box. All weapons should be properly vetted before being used for critical use or defensive purposes.

So I am trying to give sound advice. Is the advice sound for you to automatically "upgrade" these rifles for killing only cans? Not IMO and quite frankly I see that type of advice automatically dispensed when the question is asked, even without all of the information needed. Sure I could give you a blanket answer on what to "upgrade" but is that doing your occasional back forty, can killing enthusiast good advice? Not IMO.

I understand your point very clearly. I want any firearm I own to be reliable and trusted. The Stag is unfired because I dont know if I should sell it or trade it to get a top tier M4. All of my firearms have been run to be proven to me to be reliable. Ruger P95, S&W .38, Benelli, Remington. I am not in a great financial position right now to jump on a good deal and I am VERY disappointed in my choice of the Stag. Other sites love them but as I mentioned it may need to defend my family someday so I certainly want the top tier.

[das]

I looked into a spikes lower to complete the spike upper its a 8-12 mo back order.

[BufordTJustice]

...but isn't there only ONE manufacturer who has access to the TDP?

EDIT: In 2009 the Army acquired the right to use the TDP from Colt.

From GearScout:

"the US Army acquired the rights to Colt’s Technical Data Package in July, 2009. While the Army signed a 10-year exclusive contract with Colt in 1999 to produce the M4/M4A1, the Army does not own the TDP. But, the Army is now allowed to provide it to second sources of production under a licensing agreement that goes back to the original 1967 M16 contract. The M4 is a derivative of the M16."

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/gears...ith-remington/

We know that FNH USA manufactures M16s in their entirety and that Remington did have access to the TDP for a period of months when it THOUGHT it was going to produce M4's as well. We all saw how that worked out.

[BufordTJustice]

That's true for anything. Even more so if you're not performing any inspection or preventative maintenance on your gear.



I'm not advocating playing a lottery either. Any gun I own is going to have to prove itself trouble free for at least 500 rounds with no cleaning or lube before I consider it "good", "tier 1" or not.



You know what, so do I. But I also advocate using common sense and not jumping to the conclusion that anything other than Colt, Noveske or BCM will automatically shit the bed and spontaneously combust when the flag drops.

You can consider something "good" or "tier 1" all day. It doesn't make it so.

Failures from non spec parts can happen suddenly and without warning...like a crack or inclusion on a bolt that WOULD have been discovered by HPT/MPI testing...but what you're recommending is that if somebody has a batch-tested item, they should still have just as much confidence in that item. I disagree.

A bolt with an undiscovered flaw could fail AT ANY TIME and there is no way you could know prior to the failure. Same with an extractor that is not made from tool steel and shot peened, same with a barrel made from cheap steel and not HPT/MPI, same with a barrel extension that does not meet required hardness specs (could allow headpsace to grow over time).

You CANNOT KNOW what will fail in a gun that is not made to spec. CANNOT KNOW. At least with milspec there are safeguards due to using specific, high quality materials, tight tolerances, and specific assembly techniques. Buying a gun that does not adhere to these standards is a GAMBLE.

You are advocating that if somebody has a substandard gun that may be used for defensive purposes that they should just "trust" that gun after a certain number of rounds.

There is a reason that Pat Rogers "Filthy 14" wasn't a Stag, Bushmaster, DPMS, CMMG, or Olympic Arms. I bet Pat wishes those would work just as well as a BCM/Colt/LMT/DD, since they all cost a LOT less for him to buy. But the fact is, they don't stand up to the abuse like a properly made carbine. You can tout something as "good enough for you" all you want...but trying to push that FAITH onto other people could eventually get somebody hurt or killed.

I never said that any of these guns will "automatically shit the bed". What I did say was that their failure modes are far less predictable than with mil spec guns because set standards have not been employed. What don't you understand about this? You don't know what you don't know about these sub-par guns.

[Warp]

In 2009 the Army bought the rights to the TDP from Colt.

Does the army manufacture ARs?

Did the army provide other manufacturers with the TDP? If so, which ones, and when?

I am not understanding how this statement addresses me question.

[yossarian42]

Should a stag with plus package be considered made to spec then? The only thing that can think of that could be out of spec if you have the plus package is gas port size and chamber size. Anything else to worry about? Just curious because I thought I was making a good purchase with a stag plus package rifle.




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[BufordTJustice]

Does the army manufacture ARs?

Did the army provide other manufacturers with the TDP? If so, which ones, and when?

I am not understanding how this statement addresses me question.

See my edited post.