17 MOST IMPORTANT GUNFIGHT STATS: BACKED BY DATA AND REAL WORLD EXPERIENCE

[Outlander Systems]

LOL! You just don't want to use .44 Mag in a SD shooting, because the Assistant DA will charge your ass with cruel and inhumane violence with an intent for overkill.

RE: Donion Rings. I boosted that from a Guinness-Swilling, Red-Meat Eating, Taliban-Body-Stacking, Barrel-Chested Freedom Fighting NCO from the 82nd.

[Outlander Systems]

This thread needs:

[RioGrandeGreen]

Saw the GSW's to a big fat guy with five Fed hst .40 to the gut, he went down! Two actually went thru the wrist and the forearm into the gut. I was amazed at how little he bled.

[plain old dave]

The 40 is a very good fight-stopper. Much better than most 9mm loadings. Just needs to be in heavier framed guns, as there are reports of early frame fatigue that remind me of when doctrine with the classic Combat Magnum or later Model 19 changed from "practice mostly with 38 Specials and a little with 357s, and carry 357s" to "practice exclusively with your carry ammo" and you started seeing cracked forcing cones and guns developing premature endshake.

Just like Smith solved the durability problem by introducing the L Frame, what's really needed is a "41 Frame" automatic. Beefier than a Tupperware 9mm, but not as big as a 45. The extra size would help with muzzle flip and make the guns longer lasting too. An alloy framed BDA or BDM might do the trick.

[Arik]

If that's what you want to call 'trusting your life to a reliable handgun,' go right on. I just never have been one to fix something that isn't broken.

I have owned and shot selfloaders of all sorts, and they ALL jam. As close to a reliable selfloader as I have ever had was a Colt 1903 in .32ACP, but that's hardly an optimal choice. One I have wanted for a while is a Remington 51 in 380ACP. Decent compromise of concealability and power. Just to dispel any notions that I'm just a reactionary, the selfloaders I have had and/or shot follow:

Government models in .45 and .38 Super.
Springfield XD40
The aforementioned 1903 Colt
Mauser Broomhandle
ChiCom TT33
M92SBF
PA-63
Ruger Mk II, III, 22/45

I have shot others, as well, including Lugers, P38s, Hi Standards, and the g-word, but not enough to make any real conclusion on their reliability. A first principle in personal defense has to be "have a reliable arm." And the closest I have had to a completely reliable selfloader was my 1903.

The topic is a valid one, but an irrelevant one if your weapon isn't reliable.

1) Have a reliable arm. Topic already beaten to pulp.

2) Build marksmanship skills with it. It gets tiring going to the range and seeing people thinking they're actually building marksmanship skills by shooting steel plates. Then they shoot paper and can barely hold the scoring rings at 15 yards.

3) Study broadly. No need to re-learn lessons written in blood. There's a wealth of knowledge out there; while case law has evolved and a permit holder MUST be aware of their own State's laws; for example here in TN the Grand Jury failing to return a true bill does not grant the shooter immunity from civil action (i.e. the family suing for wrongful death), the plain fact is that the basics of surviving a gunfight were pretty well completely explored between about 1930 and 1970 or so.

4) Find drills that work for your situation and run them.

A VERY valid point was made that there's a lot of police reference. The thread would be a LOT more valuable if data existed somewhere that was restricted to shootings involving private carry permit holders.

Out of 7 revolves I've had 3 go down. All were older so there no blame on modern MIM.

Model 12 cylinder would bind and not rotate.
Model 28 hammer issues. Wouldn't hit the primer
Model 13 broke firing pin after 300 round and bound up. Can't open cylinder.

Not a very good percentage for reliability

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[MegademiC]

The 40 is a very good fight-stopper. Much better than most 9mm loadings. Just needs to be in heavier framed guns, as there are reports of early frame fatigue that remind me of when doctrine with the classic Combat Magnum or later Model 19 changed from "practice mostly with 38 Specials and a little with 357s, and carry 357s" to "practice exclusively with your carry ammo" and you started seeing cracked forcing cones and guns developing premature endshake.

Just like Smith solved the durability problem by introducing the L Frame, what's really needed is a "41 Frame" automatic. Beefier than a Tupperware 9mm, but not as big as a 45. The extra size would help with muzzle flip and make the guns longer lasting too. An alloy framed BDA or BDM might do the trick.

Modern 40s do not have frame fatigue and no one wants a heavier gun. If you're experiencing "muzzle flip", you should shoot strings and learn to use a grip that keeps the gun close to on target, and returns when the slide finishes cycling.

Nothing is a reliable fight stopper besides a cns hit, or a cardiovascular hit and some time.

[plain old dave]

Out of 7 revolves I've had 3 go down. All were older so there no blame on modern MIM.

Model 12 cylinder would bind and not rotate.
Model 28 hammer issues. Wouldn't hit the primer
Model 13 broke firing pin after 300 round and bound up. Can't open cylinder.

Not a very good percentage for reliability

Sent from my XT1650 using Tapatalk

Modern shootin' irons.

I have owned 22 revolvers, 8 SAs, 14 DAs. And IIRC every one of the DAs predated S&W's elimination of the barrel pin in the early 1980s.

Out of these 22 revolvers, only two have had plausibly fight-stopping stoppages. Broke a trigger spring on one Uberti, but could still slip fire it (ear hammer back and let slip), a common solution in the days of John Wesley Hardin and Wyatt Earp. And a starting load in the 32-20 would foul the cylinder gap enough to bind the cylinder up, problem solved by increasing the powder charge or using the (expensive and anemic) storebought ammo.

1 collective "stoppage" (neither put the gun completely out of commission; the SAA was still operable and the 32-20 wouldn't bind up til 25-30 shells at least) out of 22 revolvers is plenty good odds to stake your life on.

Just to be fair, I got an Arcus HP clone the other day and thus far it is the most reliable selfloader I have ever had. But my personal experience tells me pretty conclusively that if you're shooting for keeps your gun better have a cylinder.

[Arik]

Modern shootin' irons.

I have owned 22 revolvers, 8 SAs, 14 DAs. And IIRC every one of the DAs predated S&W's elimination of the barrel pin in the early 1980s.

Out of these 22 revolvers, only two have had plausibly fight-stopping stoppages. Broke a trigger spring on one Uberti, but could still slip fire it (ear hammer back and let slip), a common solution in the days of John Wesley Hardin and Wyatt Earp. And a starting load in the 32-20 would foul the cylinder gap enough to bind the cylinder up, problem solved by increasing the powder charge or using the (expensive and anemic) storebought ammo.

1 collective "stoppage" (neither put the gun completely out of commission; the SAA was still operable and the 32-20 wouldn't bind up til 25-30 shells at least) out of 22 revolvers is plenty good odds to stake your life on.

Just to be fair, I got an Arcus HP clone the other day and thus far it is the most reliable selfloader I have ever had. But my personal experience tells me pretty conclusively that if you're shooting for keeps your gun better have a cylinder.

Exactly. Had 3/7 for revolvers and 0/10 for glocks. 0/4 for Sigs. 0/7 for HK. So..... Overall I've had zero problems with out of 21 guns within 3 manufacturers and 3 different calibers but had almost 50% failure rate with revolvers.

My experience say you better NOT have a cylinder if you're shooting for keeps

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[plain old dave]

I have never had a failure of any kind out of a Smith and Wesson N-frame. And a fixed sight N-frame is probably the best fighting gun ever made by men, especially if one could be procured in 45 Colt. If you buy the modern "double tap" idea, you're putting 500 grains or more of lead in your target every time you engage. And there's not much in the way of a service handgun with more stopping power than a .45 Colt sending a 250 grain bullet along at @900 fps. That's 40-70 more foot pounds of swat every time you shoot than the average 115-120 grain 9mm.

The 357 was more common for peace officers, but the 45 Colt was, is and always will be, a superior handgun caliber. It, in a proper gun, can be used for literally everything in the Lower 48. From plinking with Trail Boss and lightweight bullets to large game and custom 300gr "Ruger only" loads, there is no handgun purpose the old 45 won't answer. A 45 Colt, in the proper handgun, is literally the perfect General Purpose Handgun.

[Outlander Systems]

What are your thoughts on 10mm?

The 40 is a very good fight-stopper. Much better than most 9mm loadings. Just needs to be in heavier framed guns, as there are reports of early frame fatigue that remind me of when doctrine with the classic Combat Magnum or later Model 19 changed from "practice mostly with 38 Specials and a little with 357s, and carry 357s" to "practice exclusively with your carry ammo" and you started seeing cracked forcing cones and guns developing premature endshake.

Just like Smith solved the durability problem by introducing the L Frame, what's really needed is a "41 Frame" automatic. Beefier than a Tupperware 9mm, but not as big as a 45. The extra size would help with muzzle flip and make the guns longer lasting too. An alloy framed BDA or BDM might do the trick.