The S&W M&P problem thread

[WillBrink]

One of the guys posted this in the link above, and it got me thinking:



If the M&P is sensitive to grip (not for function, but for accuracy) then that could explain why some people shoot it just fine and others have a hard time with it. A "tight" grip is relative to the person holding it. But if the pistol requires so much force exerted on the frame to maintain whatever accuracy its capable of, then that could explain some of the variability.

It could be (another) reason why some people don't see any improvement with the Storm Lake or KKM barrels. Hasn't it been mentioned here that the M&P unlocks really quickly compared to other designs? I wonder if grip (or a heavier recoil spring) would affect this. (Which would in turn affect accuracy.)

I don't know what the official bench rest accuracy is for the MnP of the various calibers and configs, but it was designed to be rugged reliable working gun with acceptable combat accuracy, and the price reflects that. I was hitting an 8" steel plate from 25+ yard with a .40 MnP compact the other day - equipped with the horrible MA approved trigger no less - and was impressed with that actually as it was "good enough for gubment work" to be sure. As it was steel, can't say what the groups were.

My buddy was also able to do that with the MnP, and that was the first time he ever shot one. He commented on how impressed with the accuracy was considering the terrible trigger (you really have to stage the trigger to get the accuracy with that POS MA approved trigger, but I digress...) short site radius, etc.

If you put in an Apex set up in the gun, have a match grade barrel fitted, sites that are best for your needs, improve stippling, etc, you will end up with a gun that is damn close to "match grade" accuracy, but then you have now sunk enough $$$ to simply start with a match grade accurate gun.

It's always fun to do upgrades to a stock gun to end up with something customized to your wants/needs, and as long as it does not negatively impact the reliability, etc I'm all for it, and have done it various times to good results.

It sounds to me at least like you are expecting a much higher degree of accuracy then the stock version can deliver, and I'm sure some are better out of the box then others, as is the nature of guns made in large batches, and such.

Or, it could just be you...

[jh9]

Bar-Sto is in the process of making the barrels. I spoke to Irv about it before he started the project. We discussed the need for longer dwell time at length. The geometry of the bottom recoil lug needs to be changed along with the vertical locking surface dimensions. With any luck I should see a pre-production barrel in a few weeks.

Awesome.

[jh9]

rugged reliable working gun with acceptable combat accuracy, and the price reflects that.

Sure, I don't think it's reasonable to expect a $500 pistol designed for reliability over precision to perform as well as a $2000 wadcutter gun. But my frustration here is with how inconsistent the accuracy is from gun-to-gun or even shooter-to-shooter. You can lay a Glock 17 (or a Beretta 92, or a S&W 5906, etc) down on a table and have 10 equally competent shooters fire a 5-shot group at 10 yards, and the groups won't vary nearly as much as they will with an M&P. The M&P is very sensitive to something. It doesn't seem like it's something obvious like ammo or a bad batch of barrels.

Or, it could just be you...

The thought crossed my mind.

I'm not so much concerned that TGO or Sevigny could shoot my M&P better than me (that's a foregone conclusion). I'm concerned that I can shoot several different (sometimes unfamiliar) guns better than me with my M&P. I'm not the only one that's experiencing this. Maybe the Bar-Sto option will address some of the inconsistency. Maybe not.

I hate to give up on the platform. It fits me like a glove. Plus, there aren't many decent guns out there with an ambidextrous slide release.

[JHC]

jh9, I think you are onto something. As is Irv Stone. Almost every guy I've seen post on a comp oriented site about trying aftermarket barrels has seen little if any change (these are mostly the 5" models). If there is anything to the lock up "dwell time" then no wonder the 5" guns exhibit the tendency more than the std FS.

Combat accuracy it has, however that is generally defined. I never could get any of a half dozen different loads and bullet wts to group better than 5" at 25 yds.

Very very impressive platform in any case.

[Wayne Dobbs]

I want to love this platform, especially since the ergonomics were so well done. However, as I posted sometime back, mine is a horrible grouper delivering 8-10" bench rested groups at 25 yards with a variety of ammo.

I'm hoping that the BarSto barrels will be the answer to this issue.

And then Friday, I broke a striker! Brownells has none in stock. Can somebody give me a number for Smith's Customer Service to order one? Does anybody know a specific individual at S&W CS to speak with?

Thanks!

Wayne

[javentre]

Can somebody give me a number for Smith's Customer Service to order one

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/w...4_757812_image

[WillBrink]

I want to love this platform, especially since the ergonomics were so well done. However, as I posted sometime back, mine is a horrible grouper delivering 8-10" bench rested groups at 25 yards with a variety of ammo.

How is that going to compare to other polymer mass produced guns of a similar $$$ and barrel length? This is the firs time I have read of accuracy complaints for the MnP within it's design spec and intended use, so this is all news to me. Interesting.

Other then high end 1911s, I don't expect great groups out to 25 yards, but I have done minimal testing there being essentially a life long 1911 guy.

[silentsod]

1-800-331-0852 will let you get in contact with their CS.

I keep a spare striker on hand that I purchased at speedshooterspecialties.com even though I only ever dry fire with snap caps in the gun.

[Jerm]

You can lay a Glock 17 (or a Beretta 92, or a S&W 5906, etc) down on a table and have 10 equally competent shooters fire a 5-shot group at 10 yards, and the groups won't vary nearly as much as they will with an M&P. The M&P is very sensitive to something.

My experience has been totally different.

Granted,it's small sample size.Three guns,at least half a dozen shooters...

But of my 3 M&P9s I've yet to put on in someones hands at the range who didn't walk away impressed and with a new item on their wish/shopping list.Some of these guys aren't the type to be easily impressed either(quite the opposite actually).I've found it to be one of the most consistently shooter friendly guns I've come across.

Slow fire and standing...

Either of my FS M&Ps can hit a 20oz bottle cap at 15 yards if you do your part(which is anywhere from 25-50% of the time for me,depending on the day I'm having)...Actually,I'm sure they can do much better than that(as I seriously doubt I'm as accurate as the guns).

That's with 115gr WWB,groups on paper tighten a bit with 147gr HST.We(me and my usual range partner) both typically get 8"-10" groups at 25 yards(again,that's slow fire with no bench or rest).

[Wayne Dobbs]

Thanks for the contact info, guys!

Will,

As far as other mass produced polymer pistol accuracy, I only have Glocks for a reference point, but I've watched, fired or supervised the firing of a couple of million rounds from that platform involving a few hundred examples since the late 1980s. Most were 9mm, the next most represented were .40 S&W and a very few .45 ACP guns were involved. Most of these pistols would shoot about 3-4" 25 yard groups from a prone or other solid rested position. I did find that the .40 pistols were the worst of the breed accuracy wise during all this time.

I have three 3rd Gen G17s and a single 3rd Gen G19 right now and all of them will stay inside of 3" at 25 yards off the bench. The M&P is simply terrible and I became suspicious of it right after I traded for it when I noted that it wasn't shooting to my shot "calls" during some LAV bullseye drills at 15 yards. My scores were also lower and when I bench tested it, I found out I have a turkey. I will have to do some thinking about spending lots of money on a new barrel and may send the gun to Smith and see if they'll offer any options that improve the situation.