Interesting thread on GT about bullet performance in actual shootings

**fivefivesix** · 01-08-11, 20:40

Originally Posted by Beat Trash

Lt. Col. David Grossman wrote a book titled "On Killing - The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society". While I do not agree with everything in his book, the majority of it is a good read. It explains why your brain and body reacts the way it does after you are involved in a critical incident. So when you may experience some of these things you will know that you're not going nuts.

There is another series titled "The Bullet Proof Mind". It's worth looking into also.

One must also remind themselves that they did not cause this death. The outcome was determined by the actions of the suspect.

i think the last paragraph sums it up, it would be the criminal that caused himself to lose his life, because if it does come down to it and he intends to do me or my loved ones harm he will get a double tap to chest. you guys bring up great things to ponder.

**bernieb90** · 01-09-11, 01:51

Originally Posted by WS6

My confusion arises from the fact that you agree that an FMJ .40 wound looks like that made from a GDHP .40. Since there is no magical shock-wave damaging multiple organs (Having watched multiple laproscopic surgeries, I agree, organs are very spaced out), the bullet only destroys what is in it's path, and if the paths look to be of the same size, what is gained from the JHP other than lower penetration? They both have been stated to make the same-size hole according to people who have seen the two holes made by the various rounds. .40" and .75" would be visibly different, imho. Sorry, feeling a bit lost here.

Human tissue is elastic, an varies greatly in consistency, and density. Trying to visually estimate hole size in a bloody wound is quite difficult. The fact is that an expanded JHP with jagged edges will tend to cut more arteries, veins, and capillaries than a smooth FMJ which will often push them aside as it passes. An expanded JHP will also do more damage to inelastic tissue than an FMJ due to the larger temporary cavity.

Given identical shot placement and assuming adequate penetration an expanded JHP will cause more rapid incapacitation than an FMJ.

Edged weapons cut much more efficiently than bullets leading to rapid blood loss.

**BuckskinJoe** · 01-09-11, 08:12

Originally Posted by Entropy

I've read many dozens of OIS's over the years. Fortunately, I've never had to be part of one. The only conclusion I have been able to draw from those reports is that handguns in general suck. Regardless of what caliber and pistol you choose to carry, practice it enough that you are proficient under a wide range of conditions including with either hand and single hand. Do what you have to do to avoid being shot, move a lot, and make your shots count. You're only as strong as your weakest link, and for most of us that would be shooting with our off-hand. For me, I've mostly shoot 9mm as it makes me a better gun fighter due to its low training costs, reliability, ease of control, and higher magazine capacity.

Now, if the option is there I will almost always grab a 12 gauge.....especially at night or other environments that force the close ranged fight. Once again, you see enough OISs and by far close ranged buckshot seems to do quite a good job. Martin Fackler also commented on this trend in his papers. Obviously this would not be the best option for longer ranged engagements, but you prepare for your environment and seize the combat advantage.

Most excellent! Very perceptive and well stated.

**200RNL** · 01-09-11, 17:56

Originally Posted by bernieb90

Given identical shot placement and assuming adequate penetration an expanded JHP will cause more rapid incapacitation than an FMJ.

Bleedout time, from either type of bullet, may give an attacker more than enough time to kill you. The $64,000 question is: How much more rapid is the incapacitation of a JHP vs. a FMJ?

There are perceptions and antecdotes on handgun incapacitation but the actual, measureable difference between JHP and FMJ incapacitation has not yet been scientifically determined.

**DeltaKilo** · 01-09-11, 18:29

Originally Posted by 200RNL

Bleedout time, from either type of bullet, may give an attacker more than enough time to kill you. The $64,000 question is: How much more rapid is the incapacitation of a JHP vs. a FMJ?

There are perceptions and antecdotes on handgun incapacitation but the actual, measureable difference between JHP and FMJ incapacitation has not yet been scientifically determined.

Likely the difference in bleedout time between JHP and FMJ is far less significant than the bleedout time gap between shooting the guy once and shooting the guy until he stops or you run out of ammunition...

**Entropy** · 01-09-11, 22:00

Originally Posted by 200RNL

Bleedout time, from either type of bullet, may give an attacker more than enough time to kill you. The $64,000 question is: How much more rapid is the incapacitation of a JHP vs. a FMJ?

There are perceptions and antecdotes on handgun incapacitation but the actual, measureable difference between JHP and FMJ incapacitation has not yet been scientifically determined.

There's bleed out, and central nervous system damage. I once saw a teenage girl shot through the forehead by a 9mm FMJ and she was able to tell us that her boyfriend had done it. The bullet neatly went in between the two hemispheres of her brain causing minimal damage. An expanded JHP would have caused more damage to the tissue surrounding the wound path. Also, just because you get a nice COM hit on someone doesn't mean you'll hit anything good. An expanded JHP once again will almost double the size of the wound channel increasing the possibility of damaging the aorta or the spinal cord. Probably the one advantage I can think of to using FMJ is that the bullet won't slow down very much and might retain enough momentum to punch through the spine.

The shape of a projectile also plays an important role in wounding. A rounded point will push tissue aside instead of ripping/tearing/crushing it. If you've ever taken a target arrow and shot an animal with it, the tissue just stretches around the arrow. A wadcutter, or expanded hollow point has worse fluiddynamics and will crush tissue in its path versus pushing it aside. So the benefits of a JHP are larger hole, and a more effective wounding mechanism. Pre-World War I the British experimented with the dumb-dumb and manstopper handgun rounds during their African campaigns. The manstopper .455 Eley bullet was an early hollow point that demonstrated clear improvement over the standard round nosed bullet. Of course, the innovation stopped with international treaties and early magazine fed auto pistols that needed round nosed bullets for reliable feeding.

**DeltaKilo** · 01-09-11, 23:00

Originally Posted by Entropy

There's bleed out, and central nervous system damage. I once saw a teenage girl shot through the forehead by a 9mm FMJ and she was able to tell us that her boyfriend had done it. The bullet neatly went in between the two hemispheres of her brain causing minimal damage. An expanded JHP would have caused more damage to the tissue surrounding the wound path. Also, just because you get a nice COM hit on someone doesn't mean you'll hit anything good. An expanded JHP once again will almost double the size of the wound channel increasing the possibility of damaging the aorta or the spinal cord. Probably the one advantage I can think of to using FMJ is that the bullet won't slow down very much and might retain enough momentum to punch through the spine.

The shape of a projectile also plays an important role in wounding. A rounded point will push tissue aside instead of ripping/tearing/crushing it. If you've ever taken a target arrow and shot an animal with it, the tissue just stretches around the arrow. A wadcutter, or expanded hollow point has worse fluiddynamics and will crush tissue in its path versus pushing it aside. So the benefits of a JHP are larger hole, and a more effective wounding mechanism. Pre-World War I the British experimented with the dumb-dumb and manstopper handgun rounds during their African campaigns. The manstopper .455 Eley bullet was an early hollow point that demonstrated clear improvement over the standard round nosed bullet. Of course, the innovation stopped with international treaties and early magazine fed auto pistols that needed round nosed bullets for reliable feeding.

There has been an ongoing and very interesting discussion on another forum on the effectiveness of Wadcutter ammunition vs. ball, as well. Interesting stuff came of that.

**bernieb90** · 01-09-11, 23:25

Originally Posted by DeltaKilo

Likely the difference in bleedout time between JHP and FMJ is far less significant than the bleedout time gap between shooting the guy once and shooting the guy until he stops or you run out of ammunition...

In a life, and death situation I will take any advantage I can get regardless of how small.