Defensive Shotgun: Speed or Capacity?

[Kraken]

To OP, I think the 1301 was an excellent choice. It's the semi-auto shotgun I'd get I wanted one.

And I may. I wish the sights were removable/changeable.

If it could be used for HD and shooting clays well it would the only shotgun I'd ever need!

Look at the 1300 comp - may fit the role you're looking for.

[26 Inf]

Since WS6 brought up Doctors Fackler and Roberts, lets talk about #1 Buckshot.

According to Dr. Roberts: The new Federal #1 buckshot, 15 pellet, 1100 fps "Flight Control" load (LE132-1B) offers IDEAL terminal performance for LE and self-defense use and is the best option for those who need to use shot shells for such purposes. In bare gel, all 15 of the 30 caliber plated pellets penetrate in the 14-18 inch range.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread...uck-vs-00-Buck

International Wound Ballistics Association Journal, I believe the article was by Dr. Fackler: For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.

Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.

A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. (my note: 15 in the Federal Flite Control Load) The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma.

In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

For home defense applications a standard velocity 2 ¾-inch #1 buck shotshell (16 pellet payload) from Federal, Remington or Winchester is your best choice. We feel the Federal Classic 2 ¾-inch #1 buck load (F127) is slightly better than the same loads offered by Remington and Winchester. The Federal shotshell uses both a plastic shot cup and granulated plastic shot buffer to minimize post-ignition pellet deformation, whereas the Remington and Winchester loads do not.

Second best choice is Winchester's 2 ¾-inch Magnum #1 buck shotshell, which is loaded with 20 pieces of copper-plated, buffered, hardened lead #1 buckshot. For those of you who are concerned about a tight shot pattern, this shotshell will probably give you the best patterning results in number 1 buck. This load may not be a good choice for those who are recoil sensitive.

Third choice is any standard or reduced recoil 2 ¾-inch #00 lead buckshot load from Winchester, Remington or Federal. (this article was written before Federal came out with FLITECONTROL in #1 Buck)


All my office stuff is still boxed up, so I searched the web for the article, found excerpts at: https://www.thehighroad.org/index.ph...-loads.659542/

[Gunfixr]

Some more info on the saiga, as I've owned and ran a couple over the yrs.
The 5, 10, and 12rd stick mags will take 3" shells, so any 2 3/4" shell will fit. There are 10, 12, and 20rd drums, they only take 2 3/4" shells. I don't remember trying longer roll crimped shells in them.
The 10 and 12 Rd sticks are kinda long, but if you stay on your feet, no real big deal. They can suck a bit operating in a vehicle. The 12 Rd drums are nice, not real fat, not quite as long as a 10rd stick. However, all mags, but maybe the 5rd, suck to try and carry extras. The sticks will go in a large back pocket, or cargo pocket (back is better), so you could run a 12rd drum, and a 10rd stick in a pocket. More than that, you need Web gear. Mags are difficult to load under a closed bolt. Practice makes it a bit better, bolt mods help more. Drums that are filled to capacity cannot be loaded under a closed bolt, and downloaded are notably harder than stick mags.
Keeping a saiga loaded will deform the top round in the mag, I have heard of it occasionally causing a problem. Just keeping loaded mags isn't an issue.
Saigas, especially later ones, had varying reliability out of the box.
Mags rock in like an AK.
Haven't messed with the vepr. Got out of saigas about the time they really started showing up. I believe their mags just insert straight in, and the have a last round bolt hold open, which would make them easier to load.

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[Ron3]

Look at the 1300 comp - may fit the role you're looking for.

I'll check it out, thanks.

[Canonshooter]

Speaking of shot shell deformation, has anyone here seen any documented evidence of shells deforming when kept in a partially loaded tubular magazine?

[Ron3]

Speaking of shot shell deformation, has anyone here seen any documented evidence of shells deforming when kept in a partially loaded tubular magazine?

Maybe. I have a relative that kept his shotgun loaded, pretty sure one short, had one she'll cracking and another cracked open.

I'm surprised they came out but not much longer they wouldn't have. We later fired them and they worked, surprisingly.

Fully loaded shotguns and those loaded and unloaded with the same shells will come apart eventually. Seen it.

[voiceofreason]

I moved away from shotguns for defensive purposes. Too damn heavy and cumbersome for the limited ammunition it carries and I prefer to know exactly where my rounds will hit, even if the farther distance of my home away. Carbines are better for HD imo. I'm not enamored with the feeding reliability of shotguns in general compared to Ar15s

That said, I'd go semi over pump. People will rail on semis as being unreliable, but with full power ammo, they are more reliable then people short stroking their pumps under stress. Run full power ammo in semis.

Federal Tactical #1 buck grouped the best by far when my friends and I did an impromptu test of over a dozen different buckshot loads. We were bringing out the old/cheap/stacked stuff for a fun shoot and realized we had a nice spread of different ammo.

The FT#1 was the best and tightest group by far. Both full and reduced recoil versions.

The S&B standard 00 buck spread was HUGE.

[WS6]

I moved away from shotguns for defensive purposes. Too damn heavy and cumbersome for the limited ammunition it carries and I prefer to know exactly where my rounds will hit, even if the farther distance of my home away. Carbines are better for HD imo. I'm not enamored with the feeding reliability of shotguns in general compared to Ar15s

That said, I'd go semi over pump. People will rail on semis as being unreliable, but with full power ammo, they are more reliable then people short stroking their pumps under stress. Run full power ammo in semis.

Federal Tactical #1 buck grouped the best by far when my friends and I did an impromptu test of over a dozen different buckshot loads. We were bringing out the old/cheap/stacked stuff for a fun shoot and realized we had a nice spread of different ammo.

The FT#1 was the best and tightest group by far. Both full and reduced recoil versions.

The S&B standard 00 buck spread was HUGE.

I've had more malfunctions out of AR's (Daniel Defense, Noveske) than I have with shotguns (Benelli M1014).

Across a livingroom distance, using decent quality buckshot or a slug, I never noted spread to be much.

AR's are effective, yes, no debate, but the 12ga is going to cause more trauma, faster.

[KS25-06]

I am a simple hunter, 71 years old, hunted all my life. I fail to see how you can beat an 870 Remington with a 21" slug barrel with sights and choke tube. Add a mag extension and you have 9 shots. Put a Stream light under the barrel, Load with #4 Buck and good to go. It sits right beside the bed with an AR15 with a 60 shot Surefire mag on the other side of the night stand. I killed 287 coyotes one year when hides were worth good money with an 870 and #4 buck out of a pickup window. Some as far as 40-50 yards. Never had a short stroke and that gun was dumped in the dirt on more than one occasion when the driver had turned too fast. It was me or the gun going in the dirt. Retrieved the gun, pulled of the barrel, used bailing wire and a rag to knock the sand or dirt out of the barrel. Poured beer or water down the barrel, flushed the action with same and went back to chasing coyotes. You can spend a lot of money, in my opinion, and not beat an 870. Use it, or practice with it and you will not have a short stroke problem.

[26 Inf]

That, my friend, is an awesome first post.

ETA: Those days were going by the wayside when I was growing up. We had a business in our town, right on Main Street, that bought coyote pelts and jack rabbit carcasses (whole carcass not ears) had the jacks just piled in an old stake bed truck. IIRC a mink rancher got the jackrabbits.