"Oh No! I bought a BM/RRA/Stag before I knew better!"

[Dunderway]

You have a point, and I was over-generalizing in my example to keep it short. Obviously a company with a known reputation with internal QC/higher standards is capable of producing a better product than a company with inferior methods, but more testing.

However, in the realm of AR15s, it appears that the better companies generally manufacture their guns/parts from higher quality materials to a higher standard of quality control, and then test the finished products for defects.

The problem is that most AR retailers only get to perform quality assurance on many things, and HP MPI is big part of that.

Company A orders small parts from CMT, visually and dimensionally inspects them, performs HP/MPI, and then throws away/returns the parts that don't pass.

Company B orders small parts from CMT, places them in a bag/weapon and sells them.

Most companies fall under B.

ETA: Sorry, meant to quote Mistwolf.

[TehLlama]

You yourself mentioned wanting to buy the best. But even that word is a bit subjective. "Best - For what"? A Mercedes is probably better quality than a 2000 Ford F-250 pickup truck. However; if you work on a ranch, you probably would choose the F-250 because it's better.

While "The Chart" definitely has some very good information, I personally disagree that certain attributes make one gun better.

I'm with you up to here, however, further reading about why certain items were selected to be in there, and understanding of why that's relevant in the context of mean rounds between failure will change perspectives.

While the single vs. double heat shielding on a handguard that's bound to be replaced with an MOE/M4RAS/MRF-DI may not be relevant, the procedure and testing to verify that barrels and bolts are metallurgically sound, is pretty relevant. Small parts being out of spec, carrier keys not staked, castle nuts backing out - ALL of these are known issues when rifles are build using marginal parts, incorrect assembly, and QC/QA that is lacking - and depressingly common among commercial rifles because such a large segment of the market doesn't know any better, and fires so few rounds that it goes unnoticed.

Adding in that virtually all manufacturers are using parts sourced from other firms, and many produce only a few parts and rely on other manufacturers for the majority of their parts, and the quality assurance becomes the most important part of the equation.
This costs money - it takes resources to perform testing on parts, and hire qualified people to handle inspecting items, and to source better parts. There IS a reason a Vulcan/Hesse looks like a Colt or a BCM but costs less; there also is a reason the Colt costs more AND is more common.


Additionally - Similar experience as IraqG. Wet runs. It might get some dirt, but a weapon deserves at least the modicum of care to wipe it out and relube it.
For the most part, too many guys only get trained how to clean a rifle for inspection, and only hear conflicting information about how much to lube it from SME's as well as cooks and admin REMFs who have 'BTDT' and simply concluded that a dry weapon is easier to clean.

Smedley - the resulting investigation concluded not that the weapons were over-lubed, instead that they were under-maintained, and unit level supervision of that process was insufficient to absent.

[rob_s]

It is obvious that few of the posters in the last 10 pages or so have read the original post, or at least not recently, as evidenced by the fact that the thread is now completely off-topic. Therefore, as a public service, here it is re-printed.

Lately there seem to be quite a few posts from people that are new to the AR in general, or new to this site in particular, that are starting to educate themselves and are feeling a bit of buyer's remorse. The "damn, I bought a $900 Bushmaster when I could have had an LMT for $1k" feeling is nothing new as people begin to educate themselves, and is not unique to the firearms enthusiast.

First of all, it's important to note that the below only really applies to guns intended for defensive, or offensive, purposes. If you really only ever intended your rifle as a plinker there isn't much need to do any of the below because the worst thing that will ever happen if your rifle fails to function will be that it will end your day at the range and several coke-cans will be spared that day. If, however, you envision ever needing to use this rifle for any kind of so called "hard use", then you owe it to yourself to at least do the following.

I believe that "The Chart" is having a negative impact in this regard. People are coming here and finding out that the gun they bought is sitting on the middle-to-right-side of the chart and are wondering if they made a bad choice. The answer is "probably not".

I have noticed quite a few threads in which Bushmaster, Rock River, Stag, etc. owners are starting to ask what they should do to their rifle to try to "move it to the left" on the chart. Some are even asking if they need to scrap their rifle entirely and buy a new one from the left side of the chart. The answer is "probably not".


Whether you have had the carbine for years with thousands of "trouble free" rounds through it (real-world rounds, not internet rounds) or you just bought the rifle, have hardly fired it, but are already starting to feel that buyer's remorse, don't fret. There are some very basic things you can do to improve your carbine and ensure better reliability.

1) Check the carrier key for proper staking. How do you know if it's properly staked? Go here and educate yourself. If yours doesn't look right, follow the instructions to correct it or send it out to have someone else correct it.

2) Check the extractor spring and insert to insure that the insert is black. Go here to learn about extractor inserts, springs, and O-rings. This is something anyone can install themselves.

3) Check the receiver extension end-plate for proper staking. How do you know if it's properly staked? Go here and educate yourself. If yours doesn't look right, follow the instructions to correct it or send it out to have someone else correct it.

4) Buy an "H" buffer if your carbine doesn't have it. Go here to learn why. Go here to see the different kinds of buffers. This is something anyone can install themselves.

5) Buy a properly tested, staked, constructed bolt carrier group (BCG) with the proper extractor insert. The bolt itself should be Magnetic Particle Inspected (MPI), Shot Peened, and Proof Fired. You can buy a top quality BCG from Bravo Company, G&R Tactical or LMT for around $130. You can either change out to this BCG right away, or use the one that came with your rifle until it breaks and then switch it out. The choice is yours.

Hopefully the above is helpful. Obviously, if you have that "thousands of trouble free rounds" DPMS, you may feel perfectly comfortable with leaving it alone. At the end of the day, that's what it's all about, how secure YOU feel in the thought that you may use this carbine for self, family, or society defense.

[RogerinTPA]

Thank you. The reason I asked is because some recent posts reminded me of the Jessica Lynch incident. Speculation I read at the time was that everything was "over-lubed" and sand particle attractant.
With frequent attention to detail I wouldn't have thought "over-lubed" would be a deciding factor under that circumstance. I remember having that discussion with my Dad, who was WW-II ETO, and that's the first explanation for the alleged weapons failure the both of us had (over-lubed in the sandbox)...

Not true. As stated in the AAR, as admitted by the Soldiers themselves, that the weapons malfunctioned due to a failure to properly maintain the weapons, i.e. they were not cleaned often and no lube. It was a leadership failure.

[uwe1]

It is obvious that few of the posters in the last 10 pages or so have read the original post, or at least not recently, as evidenced by the fact that the thread is now completely off-topic. Therefore, as a public service, here it is re-printed.

Good reminder Rob. Companies producing guns to the right of the chart can produce perfectly working guns. It is also important to note that a few inexpensive fixes will probably allow the gun to work just fine.

Or, just do your research and buy a gun with high QC/QA in the first place and spare yourself the headache and extra money.

[DeltaSierra]

Companies producing guns to the right of the chart...

And this brings me back to my original point...I can't find a comparison chart.


The only chart I can find is a long list that I can't decipher...

[rob_s]

And this brings me back to my original point...I can't find a comparison chart.


The only chart I can find is a long list that I can't decipher...

and which brings me back to my point, which is that this isn't the thread for this.

[DeltaSierra]

and which brings me back to my point, which is that this isn't the thread for this.

So you are not going to point me in the right direction so that I can find your chart??

I was told M4Carbine.net was a good place to come and learn - but I haven't seen anyone trying to be real helpful yet...

I ask a simple question...and get told to shove off......

[jmart]

It's a stickied thread.

https://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

[Ender]

http://m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=6642

Read the last few pages. The information given there, in several stickies and through searching the site should get you the information you want.

I'm tired of feeding people fish only to have them bitch that they don't like the taste.

So I took away the fish, and left the rod, reel, line, bait, and a map to all the good fishing holes. People can catch their own damn fish.