What are Realistic Pistol Shooting Accuracy and Times for most people

[bjxds]

I think I remember seeing a Larry Vickers comment on a 7 yard A Zone hit from draw in 1.5 sec. is considered “good”. Not to debate his wisdom, but I am not sure of the context. Good for most shooters, or good for the elite level shooter?

My context is this:
I consider 250 Hackathorn, 5 sec. bill drill, and Kyle Defoor shooting test for the elite level shooter, I am not sure most (the average shooter) could do it. I understand proper training techniques and amount of practice goes a long way, but I could practice all day every day and NEVER be able to beat Michael Jordan in a game of one on one, hit a Noland Ryan Fastball, or shoot with a Vickers, Hackathorn, Defoor…. And I don’t believe most could. Elite level shooters are elite level athletes, they just have different God Given talents.
I have tried some of the drills posted, and while some were doable some kicked my ASS. I think once you learn how to shoot the different drills (become familiar with the drills) and develop a rhythm times, can be improved.

I am equally amazed by some of the good shooters as I am with how bad some are. They are able to hit a silhouette target at 20’ and think they are good to go!

For you guys that either, train shooters, average to elite level, shoot with them, or are one, what do you think are realistic groups and times that you feel most shooters should be able to achieve?

I have seem to hit a wall in reference to speed and accuracy and I think I should be able to get better, so just looking for some insight from those of you that are able to do it. I have also noticed my dry fire training (In theory) is Always better ( Faster) than my actual shooting.

Some times for point of reference:
All Shot from low ready

3 Yards 5 shots each – All within a 5”x5” (Farthest 2 shots) group
.94-2.73
1.05-3.10
.95-2.78
.97-2.88

7 Yards 5 shots each – All within a 7”x7” (Farthest 2 shots) group
1-3.13
1.05-7.16 – I had a FTF, and Choked
1.22-3.74
1.13-3.85

[sadmin]

Are you training for a self defense context or for competitive shooting? I am far from elite but can shoot a Bill Drill anywhere from 2.1 to 2.7, which in that singular instance puts me better than most.

I don't think one drill or 10 drills for that matter make someone elite if they can master them. After all Nolan Ryan wasnt the best batter despite being a master pitcher. I don't imagine I'll ever have the likes of Bob Vogel trying to break into my home, so as far as better than most goes... Your average criminal isn't going to be able to out shoot you.

That being said, if self defense is your goal, mastering those drills probably isn't the best option to train. Drills that require comprehensive thought and movement along with abstract scenarios or ECQC type training is where this has led me.

I probably diverted a bit from your question but it's just my POV. There are far better shooters on the whole than me who can provide more solid data points. Keep at it though-


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Voodoo_Man]

If you keep running the same drills you are going to start gaming them. Which is bad and counter productive.

Ive run Defoors standards on numerous occasions and usually score pretty high, well above passing. I also dont shoot those standards all the time because I want to keep things fresh.


As for realistic shooting, find someone who has sim guns and ammo, conceal carry them and run scenarios on each other. Thats the best way. Gauging standards off a square range and a timer is going to work negatively for the more experienced shooters. If you are a novice yeah, go for it. Of course it has its place in training, just make zure you understand there is no timer in real life and often times if you are waiting for a queue you are behind the curve.

[bjxds]

Perhaps I should have been a little more clear; I am ONLY questioning, referring to the accuracy and times standards. I AGREE 100% that tactics/mindset/SA is equally if not MORE important. I get the gaming of the drills concept, and you can see by my 7+ sec FTF time at 7 yds that I was totally NOT prepared for that. BUT I am GLAD it happened. I got caught up in the accuracy and speed and neglected everything else. If the target was a bad guy wanting to kill me, and that happened on the first shot, it would not have mattered if was able to get sights on target in .5 sec. That would have been "REAL BAD!"

It is my opinion is, most people are average in life, HE who is best prepared, WINS!
I have always told my kids, Most people want to be the best, but are they willing to do what it takes to be the best, and if so, are they physically and mentally able to do so. Like Clint said, " A Man's Got To Know His Limitations"

[Arctic1]

Most drills are designed to test aspects of your marksmanship skills. These can be:

-Grip/recoil control
-Trigger control
-Accuracy (sight alignment) and speed (shot cadence and draws) at various distances
-Manipulations (reloads, malfunction clearance)
-Movement (lateral, forward, backwards, getting into and out of stances; standing, kneeling, prone)

Drills often test several of these at the same time.

As for your question on what realistic accuracy and times are, that is a very difficult question to answer.
It will all depend on the amount of training you put in, as well as degree of natural aptitude. Not everyone can perform like Rob Leatham, Bob Vogel, LAV or Kyle Defoor, regardless of time spent training.
In addition, there are variables to the two factors you mentioned; speed and accuracy will always be affected by target distance and target size. Therefore, you will need to define the metrics.

Personally, I use The Test, as a baseline test when I hit the range and I always shoot it cold.

My latest runs:

First run shot cold, 95 pts in 7:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9t-..._pEDD2tzSSqMpg

Second run, shot a few minutes after my first, 97 pts in 7:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoqE..._pEDD2tzSSqMpg

As soon as I am able to perform like this consistently, I will increase the degree of difficulty; mag change before time expires, shoot as fast as I can, start from draw etc.

What I feel is important when shooting and striving to become better, is to never work towards a milestone and settle once it is achieved. You can always get better, you can always improve. That is why I really like the system we use in the Norwegian mil, with a tiered ranking system for certain drills. You need to perform to a certain level to qualify, but you also need to perform to a certain level if you want to qualify for more demanding drills. With regards to the qualify aspect, we use it to measure progress and to provide further training and guidance to shooters who cannot perform to standard.

I'll exemplify using the Bill Drill, since it was mentioned already.

The Bill Drill is Table 3 of the Basic Pistol Drills manual of the Norwegian Army. The drill tests a shooter's stance, grip, recoil control and ability to bring the sights back on target.
It is set up as follows:

Target at 7 meters
6 shots
At buzzer, draw pistol and engage target with six shots
Requirements - Time: 4 secs or better; Accuracy: inside 9-ring (Oval circle measuring approximately 10" tall and 5" wide)
If you fail on either time, accuracy or both, you will not progress until you have passed it after more training.

This is a vid of the last time I shot it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAa1..._pEDD2tzSSqMpg

Pretty happy with all A's, but I need to draw faster as a 1.55 first shot is not good. If I manage to shave time off my draw I will also reduce total time.

The main point is that different drills will give you specific feedback on different aspects of your marksmanship skills. And we can always do better.

Measuring how you will perform in a self-defense situation using definable metrics is not possible. Shooting competition however, will put you up against the timer and other competitors, and adds a certain degree of stress/pressure. Getting force on force training will let you see how you perform during scenarios, with the added stress of unknowns and direct feedback on poor tactics.

I believe that using the timer, and standards/drills, let's you know how well you can perform and also helps you track progress and consistency.

[C4IGrant]

I think I remember seeing a Larry Vickers comment on a 7 yard A Zone hit from draw in 1.5 sec. is considered “good”. Not to debate his wisdom, but I am not sure of the context. Good for most shooters, or good for the elite level shooter?

My context is this:
I consider 250 Hackathorn, 5 sec. bill drill, and Kyle Defoor shooting test for the elite level shooter, I am not sure most (the average shooter) could do it. I understand proper training techniques and amount of practice goes a long way, but I could practice all day every day and NEVER be able to beat Michael Jordan in a game of one on one, hit a Noland Ryan Fastball, or shoot with a Vickers, Hackathorn, Defoor…. And I don’t believe most could. Elite level shooters are elite level athletes, they just have different God Given talents.
I have tried some of the drills posted, and while some were doable some kicked my ASS. I think once you learn how to shoot the different drills (become familiar with the drills) and develop a rhythm times, can be improved.

I am equally amazed by some of the good shooters as I am with how bad some are. They are able to hit a silhouette target at 20’ and think they are good to go!

For you guys that either, train shooters, average to elite level, shoot with them, or are one, what do you think are realistic groups and times that you feel most shooters should be able to achieve?

I have seem to hit a wall in reference to speed and accuracy and I think I should be able to get better, so just looking for some insight from those of you that are able to do it. I have also noticed my dry fire training (In theory) is Always better ( Faster) than my actual shooting.

Some times for point of reference:
All Shot from low ready

3 Yards 5 shots each – All within a 5”x5” (Farthest 2 shots) group
.94-2.73
1.05-3.10
.95-2.78
.97-2.88

7 Yards 5 shots each – All within a 7”x7” (Farthest 2 shots) group
1-3.13
1.05-7.16 – I had a FTF, and Choked
1.22-3.74
1.13-3.85

I believe that the 1.5 was from concealment. This is also a D4 standard.


I have passed all the tests by all the best instructors (10/10/10 with 100 points, Humbler, Hackathorn Standards, D4's Standards, etc). When I met other individuals that could also do similar things, I considered them a VERY good shooter (top 10% of the shooting populace). Then I found out that a lot of these people cannot do two things at once (like clear a building, shoot around a car, shoot with 2-4 other people in a room or operate at night).

I have asked the best minds in the tactical universe what REALLY matters (Pannone, D4, Vickers, Hackathorn etc). What do they all say? Situational awareness, Tactics and Mindset. Having a 1.0 second draw (or less) matters not if you don't know all the other components of a gun fight. So now I judge people by their ability to THINK ON THEIR FEET and also execute ACCURATE rounds on target.


Good luck in your quest....



C4

[C4IGrant]

M
Personally, I use The Test, as a baseline test when I hit the range and I always shoot it cold.

My latest runs:

First run shot cold, 95 pts in 7:06
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9t-..._pEDD2tzSSqMpg

Second run, shot a few minutes after my first, 97 pts in 7:58
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EoqE..._pEDD2tzSSqMpg

The 10/10/10 should be shot from either the low ready or from the draw (not high ready). Also, the target that needs to be used is the NRA B8.

If you don't want to do it this way or can't, that is fine with me, but just wanted you to be aware of it.



C4

[Arctic1]

The 10/10/10 should be shot from either the low ready or from the draw (not high ready). Also, the target that needs to be used is the NRA B8.

If you don't want to do it this way or can't, that is fine with me, but just wanted you to be aware of it.



C4

1. The target used says B-8, and has this seal on it:



The bull is 14 cm, which equates to 5.5":



2. I was first made aware of this drill after watching this episode of Tac-Tv:

http://tac-tv.com/videos/tac-tv-seas...thorn-standard (starts at 51:50)

I believe I have the same start position as both LAV and Dave Harrington in the video.....

[C4IGrant]

1. The target used says B-8, and has this seal on it:



The bull is 14 cm, which equates to 5.5":

That is the wrong target. This is what is used: http://www.midwayusa.com/product/589...package-of-100

Why? You could conceivably shoot two 5 "ring" shots and still pass the test. No joy. The above target removes that 5 and 6 rings.

2. I was first made aware of this drill after watching this episode of Tac-Tv:

http://tac-tv.com/videos/tac-tv-seas...thorn-standard (starts at 51:50)

I believe I have the same start position as both LAV and Dave Harrington in the video.....

Having been with Mr. Vickers and Mr. Hackathorn since the early days (and VSM instructor), I can tell you that we NEVER did the drill from the high ready. If anything, that is the "kiddy" version. Why they did the drill that way is anyones guess, but that is NOT how we did it in all the classes I attended and how we used the drill in VSM classes.

There are actually several versions of this drill (depending on your ability). The base version is from the low ready. The harder version is from the draw. The next harder one is from concealment. I have also seen Vickers do one where if there were ANY hits outside of the black, you failed! I have my own that I do with two B8's on two separate targets that are 4 feet apart. From the draw, put ONE round on each target (back and forth) until you have shot 10rds in 10 seconds for score.




C4

[Arctic1]

Copy on the target. I should use the repair center for the B-8. Don't think it will make that big a difference, for me at least.
They said B-8 in the vid, so that is what I purchased. I do have a bunch of repair centers as well.

Wrt to the ready position, I went with what was shown in the video. Does not matter, I can shoot it from the low ready and with a draw next time. What is the correct "low ready" that you reference? Arms extended from body, pistol pointed towards ground at a 45 degree angle?

ETA: The way I shot the drill in the vids is not a result of me not wanting to shoot it correctly, or not being able to.
I used the vid as a reference.

Will try it with the correct target and correct ready position next time.